I would like to propose an addition to the CoPaP charter

Discuss any general matters related to CoPaP here!

Should it be forbidden for a server to trap characters in?

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Apandapion
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I would like to propose an addition to the CoPaP charter

Post by Apandapion » Fri May 06, 2005 12:15 am

I would like to propose an addition to the CoPaP charter:

Namely, that no server is, for IC or OOC reasons, to forbid characters from departing from the server. No server should be able to keep people from leaving to another linked server. No matter how 'big' a story arc is, it's not big enough to justify isolating a character from all the things they have going on other servers.

We're all here to have fun, and if my main is locked into a certain server, I'm not having fun.

Moredo
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Post by Moredo » Fri May 06, 2005 6:53 am

Every player can chose what plots they want to be in or not, but you still have to play your character. So lets say you're boxed in with some terrible plague (lets use that scenario, heheh :wink: ). If you don't like that, as a player, I'm sure a DM online will help you escape, since, no barricades can be 110%. But you'd take some alignment shifts while doing it.

And for OOC reasons you should always be allowed to hold a character, if you feel he has been cheating, or doing something naughty we toss them in the immortal area, which is OOC punishment, and they're kinda not allowed to leave the server with that character then (VJ).

- Moredo

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Post by Tristan_Durst » Fri May 06, 2005 7:35 am

I agree with the statement Moredo made. A PC always has the right to leave whatever plot they are in, or join one. If a plot is serverwide, then the PC has the right to leave that server, and go to a different one.

But as Moredo pointed out, there May be IC actions, anc conseqences based on that decision of leaveing. :twisted:

Should there be an admendment on this, No. It should be pretty common sense. If you have a problem with the way a plot is going, then I suggest taking it to the Admin team for that server. 8) :)

Example:
I do not agree with the shutting down of the Elysia server for Avlis. The PC in which I am playing on Avlis, has had IC and IG reasons to travel to that city, but is prevented from doing so becasue of the current plot. OOC, and IC that has really kept me from doing what I wanted to do with my character.

OOCly, Yeah I might go back to Elysia, once the plot is over with a different character. IC, Elysia lost a player, cause my character will never go there again. Nor will he be in any Cross-server plots that deal with Elysia.

So Plots, and Server-wide plots, has consequences towards the server, as well as players.

-Tristan

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Post by Baron » Fri May 06, 2005 9:19 am

There are ways out of elysia - if thats what this is really about - even if you have nothing to do with the plot itself - plagues have happened in our history and there is no reason why a plague/quarantine cant happen in avlis - or any other world.

ICly there are ways in and ways out so there really shouldnt be anything holding you back - hell I've seen people walk through the barricade in the times where there are no PC guards in place..of course some people just server jump...

All that said though, Avlis isnt about everyone's PC (note the difference between PC and player) having fun all the time.. sometimes in the world things happen that are inconvenient - you can either work through it or not.
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Post by Enverex » Fri May 06, 2005 10:20 am

Baron wrote:ICly there are ways in and ways out so there really shouldnt be anything holding you back - hell I've seen people walk through the barricade in the times where there are no PC guards in place..of course some people just server jump....


Last time I went there the barricades covered the entire area, to make matters worse, they had been made plot and static so you couldn't blow them up either. The only route out is very dangerous and unless you're a high level and know your way around, I doubt you could get through it...

Apandapion
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Post by Apandapion » Fri May 06, 2005 10:37 am

I really didn't want to get into discussion of the Elysian situation, but now that others have brought it up, I will. As of my departure (to Hala, as it turns out), there were 100% closed, 100% unbreakable baracades across the two main exits to Elysia. Thus, a player has to take one of the 'secret ways' out of Elysia, all of which are dangerous, hidden, or both. This really isn't an option for new or even semi-new characters.

I also threw away most of my worldly possessions when I got to Hala (all gold, all gems, 90% of the potions, all healing kits, all melee weapons, all arrows, all crafting goods, all crafting trade goods, all maps, all books, and my trade ledger which I've had since level 2 or so). I then hand sterilized every item I kept, cast cure disease on myself again, and went into Hala. I wanted to make quite sure I didn't spread the plague (which I've never had). That's also not an option for more gear-oriented characters.

As for the "well, it could happen" angle... this is a magical world. Elysia could be enclosed in a magical bubble and get sucked into the deep ethereal, becoming the Ravenloft of CoPaP. It's just as plausible as a plague. In a fantasy world, what is possible is generally determined by what it is dramatically necessary. That being said, if I took my tabletop group and trapped them in a place, then let them leave only when the one research oriented character finished a multisession "cure the plague" plot, I'd be beaten to death with bamboo rods - and deserve it.

Regardless, you can get out of Elysia, either by OOC server hopping, or finding a guide. I did. This request doesn't really relate specifically to Elysia - the situation in Elysia has just gotten me thinking. There's nothing in the CoPaP charter that keeps some *hypothetical* DM in the future from completely sealing a CoPaP server (deleting all departing transitions) - and not letting anyone leave until they compose a three volume epic poem about the rising of bread. Right now, it's not even disallowed, and I can understand how some bakery-oriented DM might find that to be a facinating subplot.

I don't want to tell *anyone* how to run a server. Every place in CoPaP is very different, and I value that difference. All I want is the right to leave - with my character - if the show you are running turns out not to be the show for me. While "suddenly trapped in X place" often works in tabletop, it may be that such a plot is not as rich a roleplaying enviornment in the worlds of CoPaP.

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Post by Malathyre » Fri May 06, 2005 10:41 am

I'd like to thank Apandapion for bringing this up as a topic of discussion, as quarantine/restricted access plots have happened before on CoPaP, and may very well happen again.

In my experience, quarantine/restricted access plots generally come from IC motivations and concerns, and add a measure of depth and reality to a world. That being said, there can be a huge downside to them that results from player boredom/lack of things to do, particularly if there isn't a DM online; or obviously when a character gets inadvertantly trapped, that character might not be able to do all the things that character wants to, which then, on occasion, upsets people OOCly, too.

Sometimes it's hard to take these things in stride, and it's hard to remember that there will be IC consequences for IC actions that may affect other things that you want to do in game (such as breaking a quarantine, or getting held on a particular server for IC crimes committed, etc.), particularly if those consequences are "negative". That being said, there's no written rule that a player must enjoy a particular plot or participate in it. I don't think that voting for an ultimatum regarding plots is necessarily the most productive and constructive way of giving feedback for it, however. If we could come up with suggestions to make these types of plots more fun and enjoyable for all parties involved, that would probably be a better way to inform the staff of various worlds how players and DM's alike can enjoy these types of plots more.
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Post by szabot » Fri May 06, 2005 10:59 am

Not only do I think DM's should be allowed to prevent characters from server hopping IC'ly, I also think they should do it OOC'ly (prevent it, as with Kuras and the other Avlis servers). Not all the time, but at least in situations like the Elysia situation. I want to give people the benefit of the doubt when I see they've gotten out of Elysia, but, with so many successful escapes, you've got to guess that at least some just server hopped out OOC'ly.

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Post by Ulversial » Fri May 06, 2005 11:21 am

ach shite. I think I just did my voting the other way around. I vote for forbidding server trapping, so count one over to the other side :]

The reasons, well it just isn't very fun from OOC perspective if you do not enjoy participating or have other plans for you play time. And YOUR, as a PLAYER, feelings of enjoyment is what motivates you to play. So if I myself don't enjoy it, it seems pretty stupid to roleplay the situation, don't it? I'm not talking about Elysia here, just hypothetical.

So, there should always be some way out of a certain situation, allthough alignment changes and etc could be a trade off, as long as it would not affect the PLAYER's sense of enjoyment or plans TOO much.

It is also a question of what makes it categorize as trapped or not. The elysia plot is cool, but for a PLAYER that doesn't enjoy standing at the elf gate pretending he is a irc server all day (sorry no offence) it isn't that great. ( Allthough escaping is not that hard in this case, if you have a descent level character. )

So I repeat myself. If a lot of PLAYERS complain about a situation of being trapped etc, there is something wrong. Let those who enjoy the situation stay and enjoy it, and let the others go.


And Malathyre, I think he gave a constructive critique feedback: always provide a reasonable way of getting out of it if it ruins your play time.

szabot, server hopping is very useful for fixing issues with your character, OOC and actually IC. For IC actually to roleplay that your CHARACTER knows the way to a certain place allthough you as a PLAYER have forgotten it due to lack of gametime, rl issues etc.
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Post by Baron » Fri May 06, 2005 11:50 am

Enverex wrote:
Baron wrote:ICly there are ways in and ways out so there really shouldnt be anything holding you back - hell I've seen people walk through the barricade in the times where there are no PC guards in place..of course some people just server jump....


Last time I went there the barricades covered the entire area, to make matters worse, they had been made plot and static so you couldn't blow them up either. The only route out is very dangerous and unless you're a high level and know your way around, I doubt you could get through it...


actually - you can get through - i could tell you how but then id have to kill you :lol:
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Post by teleri » Fri May 06, 2005 11:53 am

Hummm... OK I am going completly hypothetical and for the record I don't think that a DM should be able to "force" a player or a character to participate in a plot (I will make the distinction here).

Ok my hypothetical situation is this. I am on a server called "trapped" and want to get to a server called "elsewhere", the trapped server is running a plot and has blown up the one area that you are required to go through to get to the transition zone on "trapped", Now I am stuck as the area before the transition zone is gone, worse the DM logs out after finishing the plot and now that area will remain gone for some undisclosed time. I then recieve a PM from someone who just arrived from "elsewhere" asking why they can't transition to the area that was distroyed. Now because of this I am trapped on the server and someone who whats to get on the server is trapped and cannot get into the server. This situation has happened to e on several differnt servers where a "choke point" locked me out of an area or an entire set of areas. (this is not based on anything that has happened here in CoPaP it happened someplace else on a two server linked world)

It is very easy to miss things when running a plot especially if you want folks to "feel" the aftereffects I don't thin the DM in question was trying to be malicious but he had a history of finishing an event then logging out leaving a mess. ( I quit playing there shortly after this for this reason and the one below)

now...

The DM because he ran the big plot element in a location that caused major havoc with the ability to travel between worlds forced everyone on both worlds to participate in his plot. This can happen on a single server if there is one location that you have to go through to get anywere and the plot is there. To get from point A to point B you have to go through "the plot gate" I know some lazy world designers who use this as a means to force players to participate in events.

Forcing characters to particpate in a plot is often done by saying you can't do x till y is finished. (Usually at which point I log out) When this is done it is a sign to me that a DM is trying to force participation because he has not been able to get enough participation in his event.

---
If you want participation in events player or character make the events enjoyable from a plot furthering exercise or from a "wow that was cool" exercise. If Bob doesn't want to be involved there should be a clear way for Bob not to get involved and still play.

There can and should be consequense for actions IC and IG but when it stops bening fun people will leave, as I did on the first linked world game I tried (man were they disfunctional).

OK sorry for posting a tome here (:
Cheers,
teleri

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Malathyre
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Post by Malathyre » Fri May 06, 2005 1:06 pm

Ulversial wrote:And Malathyre, I think he gave a constructive critique feedback: always provide a reasonable way of getting out of it if it ruins your play time.


I haven't heard of anyone being forced into playing in a particular plot on any CoPaP world, not in a very, very loooong time. Additionally, I don't know of any plots or situations that are inescapable, present situation in Elysia included.
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Post by JollyOrc » Fri May 06, 2005 1:19 pm

Actually, there IS a rule. I can't find a link with it right now, but roughly, it's this:


A CoPaP World cannot simply trap someone.


This rule was made to prevent a malevolent world owner to simply make the portal to his world one way or simply putting an uber-unbeatable NPC in front of the portal to prevent people from leaving.

What this rule NOT means is this: For reasons of a running plot some things may be temporarily harder to do than others. Things might even be nigh impossible for certain characters.

But guess what ? That's life! Your character is stuck in a place he doesn't like, and the only way out is too dangerous for you to do it alone ?

hmm...

Ever heard of Rule #1 ? Party Up! Instead of whining all over the Avlis boards, and then appealing to some higher power (CoPaP), and trying to suggest some silly rule to help your case, you should spend time in game and find an IC way out.

Without even logging in at Elysia, I know there is a way out. People have been complaining about that way for ages, and now you need it, you've forgotten it... talk about irony. :D


Last (personal) comment from me: You chose to play on a persistant world. That means that there will be things happening that you have no control over. That's the awesome thing about PWs: Things happen even when your character isn't doing anything! History happens!
bye,
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Post by Ulversial » Fri May 06, 2005 1:26 pm

Malathyre wrote:
Ulversial wrote:And Malathyre, I think he gave a constructive critique feedback: always provide a reasonable way of getting out of it if it ruins your play time.


I haven't heard of anyone being forced into playing in a particular plot on any CoPaP world, not in a very, very loooong time. Additionally, I don't know of any plots or situations that are inescapable, present situation in Elysia included.


The Elysia situation is quite inescapable if you are a low level. At least as for those IC escape routes I know of. That leaves serverhop as the only option, and that works fine in this case as Avlis is a multiserver world. But, that was not what my post was about, I merely defended his position.

Cheers :]
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Post by Sarmanos » Fri May 06, 2005 1:36 pm

Inescapable? Ha! Archibald not only fast-talked his way in past the barricade, with EDF there I might add but snuck up the unbarricaded(and un-guarded) Cyndrid's tower to his goal of the Hala portal. You just have to be resourceful and except for a transition itself being DM killed there's a way somehow in many cases.

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Post by Ulversial » Fri May 06, 2005 1:37 pm

JollyOrc wrote:...

Ever heard of Rule #1 ? Party Up! Instead of whining all over the Avlis boards, and then appealing to some higher power (CoPaP), and trying to suggest some silly rule to help your case, you should spend time in game and find an IC way out.

...


Sorry I do not wish to bring this out of context, but was too lengthy to qoute the whole post.

The catch is time. What if you do not have much time to spend on your nwn hobby, and you find yourself in a situation where you cannot do that thing you've dreamed of doing (Yeah I know I'm getting a bit exaggerative :D ). You would either, if you find your situation provides something in exchange, enjoy yourself,
OR,
If the situation is not pleasant on your part you might get upset as it ruins the little time you had to spend IG.

About Elysia again:
Again, personally I like this plague plot, however I have chosen not to stay on it (escaped it) as I feel that is not how I wanted to spend my IG time.

Cheers and have a good friday :]
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Post by JollyOrc » Fri May 06, 2005 2:39 pm

Ulversial wrote:The catch is time. What if you do not have much time to spend on your nwn hobby, and you find yourself in a situation where you cannot do that thing you've dreamed of doing (Yeah I know I'm getting a bit exaggerative :D )


this may sound harsh, and it's not entirely meant that way, but..

...this is a multiplayer game. The point of the whole thing is that you're not playing on your own, but with others, and that sometimes you have to sacrfice a bit of your own fun so that others can enjoy the game. If we all do this, we all will have more fun in the end.
bye,
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Post by Arkonswrath » Fri May 06, 2005 3:07 pm

Personally, the idea of a situation like the one currently employed on the Elysia server is awesome. It is made awesome by the involvement of the DMs that are constantly there. They try to involve everyone in something to help keep them busy and help keep it exciting. That's not easy to do, so yeah, it gets boring, yeah it gets annoying, but guess what... it's a miracle what people can find to do when they are bored

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Post by Apandapion » Fri May 06, 2005 3:25 pm

Arkonswrath wrote:Personally, the idea of a situation like the one currently employed on the Elysia server is awesome. It is made awesome by the involvement of the DMs that are constantly there. They try to involve everyone in something to help keep them busy and help keep it exciting. That's not easy to do, so yeah, it gets boring, yeah it gets annoying, but guess what... it's a miracle what people can find to do when they are bored


Heh. What time do YOU play?

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Post by Apandapion » Fri May 06, 2005 3:30 pm

JollyOrc wrote:What this rule NOT means is this: For reasons of a running plot some things may be temporarily harder to do than others. Things might even be nigh impossible for certain characters.

But guess what ? That's life! Your character is stuck in a place he doesn't like, and the only way out is too dangerous for you to do it alone ?

hmm...

Ever heard of Rule #1 ? Party Up! Instead of whining all over the Avlis boards, and then appealing to some higher power (CoPaP), and trying to suggest some silly rule to help your case, you should spend time in game and find an IC way out.


Players who are interested in some morbid entertainment : try this. Make a new character, go to elf gate, and run around trying to get people to form a group to flee Elysia through one of the more secret ways. Use no player knowledge as to who is a fine upstanding citizen and who might go along with your escape plan. Bonus points for actually making it out alive, and extra bonus points for doing it without making yourself a wanted man in Elysia.

Actually, I'm going to do this now. Anyone who wants to be a part of my sickened rabble that desperately wants to flee the city, send me a tell in game. The character name will probably be Ansley. (edit : I'm downloading the portrait pack so I can use a portrait that doesn't look like an adventurer, so it will be a bit. (edit edit: have to run to the store - 22 GMT perhaps.))

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Post by Apandapion » Fri May 06, 2005 3:44 pm

JollyOrc wrote:Actually, there IS a rule. I can't find a link with it right now, but roughly, it's this:

A CoPaP World cannot simply trap someone.


I couldn't find it either, and I looked! That is pretty much what I wanted. Well, uh... everyone move along. Nothing to see here.

Oh, one addendum: I think that a world should be free to trap people, if it is a published policy and if there is a way to escape over the long run. Abyss 404, for instance, should not be easy to leave - and I think that's fine, considering that they don't keep that fact a secret.

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Post by Gairus » Fri May 06, 2005 6:09 pm

I don't see how 404 is any different from the elysia thing.

It is not impossible, it is very hard. For IC reasons. Same thing. Same with the dangers of the portal back from tairis for that matter.

Not like people are being IJd and told to stay. *shrugs*

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Post by Sarrena » Sat May 07, 2005 7:35 am

Abyss wont be a trap world. It will be a matter of

A-Finding the exit portal. It is lightly guarded, but rather pesky to find.
B-Having the key item. Only one person in a party need have it, and it will be moderatly guarded, although creative folks can get it with ease. Of course, NPC's will drop hints to its where abouts, as can players I'm sure.

I would wager, if you now what your doing it would take 10-30 minutes to gate out, if your not familier with it and need to hunt about, maybe 1-3 hours. Of course, a player in dire need can PM a staff memeber for aid.
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Post by Moredo » Sat May 07, 2005 8:08 am

The point is, for most.. no all, 'you're trapped' plots there is a way out. But be ready to face the consequences of your actions. If you play a LG paladin and you make it do something seriously chaotic, because you as a player isn't having fun - you still have to live with the reprecussions of that act.

That's what being part of a dynamic, living world means.

If you're gonna draw the "I'm not having fun, and you can't hold me here" card to get away scot free, it's like you're having your cake and eating it to. Anyway, that's just how I feel.

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Post by Significant Owl » Sat May 07, 2005 10:44 am

Isn't this just about Purists and perhaps not-so-pure RP'ers? Some people play through the plague and don't serverhop or anything, even if it's boring, that's great, I do it too. Some people, though, want to have fun, don't want to be trapped someplace, they want to explore and so on. Why not just let them? As it is now, I think it's great. Just because someone is a purist doesn't mean that they should force everyone to be it too, just because they might be more vocal.

Moredo wrote:If you're gonna draw the "I'm not having fun, and you can't hold me here" card to get away scot free, it's like you're having your cake and eating it to. Anyway, that's just how I feel.


*Draws the "It's a game, we're here to have fun" card and cackles* ;)

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