Proposal to remove uber/banned gear from the economy

Development for CoPaP
Nob
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Post by Nob » Wed Apr 06, 2005 10:45 am

Baron wrote:.

It might behoove the team to simply ask the world to consider NOT giving their gear away when they retire, especially the gear in question. I think the majority of our players would consider it. If even a portion of the gear doesnt get handed down its an improvement.



There's actually a very simple reason why this draconian measure was brought up.

Simply put, not allowing stashes to be handed out as a request didn't work.

Rockhome even instituted a rule against 1%er type characters doing it, and it still happened.

While I don't have a problem with the concept of inheritance, it's also problematic that the usual AFTERMATH of it is MASS proliferation of items from a stash, rather than these things just being kept quietly.

Think that's the part that might need to be addressed, hence either undroppable tags, or trade-ins might work if you want to just reduce the number of items, while allowing players to still "bequeath" something.

Make the incentive to prevent proliferation rather than simply removing items.

(Think of it as nuclear proliferation. Is limited proliferation to trusted countries bad, so long as they're responsible with it?)

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Post by szabot » Wed Apr 06, 2005 11:34 am

Seems like trade-ins would be the preferred solution if it wasn't so much work, so how about trying to figure out how to do that without it being much work? Maybe for a certain amount of time, all players with banned items will be asked to give up their banned items in exchange for cool items, such as metamagic rods, which also serve as gold sinks (to help deal with inflation), or maybe even some XP. This doesn't require the creation of new items, which is work, or any kind of fairness/balancing act. Also tell them that after a certain time, DM's will start removing banned items from chests and PC's (can they remove from chests?). Removal won't sound so bad if players have a chance to get something for it in the first place. Also, the maturity level of players on CoPaP seems pretty high. I think many people will understand the reasons behing this and cooperate. A few won't, but I don't think policy is usually made with those in mind, and they'll just leave, comply, or have their items removed eventually. There should also be insurances that such items won't be given out (Bob will be reluctant to give away his banned item if he thinks Joe is going to be given a banned item soon from a DM).

Or, since there is the make-them-undroppable solution, too, how about giving players a choice: undroppable, or trade in. More work, but maybe more happiness.

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Post by Starslayer_D » Wed Apr 06, 2005 2:50 pm

Fine... a few questions:

a) When will persistant chests who allow to store items not in the aplette come in to store some of the currently carried gear?

b) Will spawns be adjusted to take into consideration that no +5 ac gear is around? I know my lvl 21 fighter has real troubles surviving spawn in groups at times, despite +5 AC gear an DR...
This one has been refused in the past with the argument:s aa) The gear you'll need at these levels will be around by DM drop, and bb) IT's 7500 spawns to eb adjusted on the wilderness server alone.



And this does hit people who store some of their gear in pers chests allready because they cannot carry what they own, even if they would like to use it actually.

Making it impossible to store things in weight reducing bags will actually be one of the killer criterias.... Even though it's only a spare armor, some cloaks etc. and a few weapons...


I feel we're resurecting a very old discussion here, and I also fear there will no solution be found wich will not leave players screwed over. Especially our salt of the earth people, the long time players.

In hindsight, it should have been what was argued at the first item drop reduction: remove all hoarded gear immediately, never drop anything, and take balancing from there. Guess why it didn't make it past the proposal stage back then?

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Post by Malathyre » Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:24 pm

Starslayer_D wrote:b) Will spawns be adjusted to take into consideration that no +5 ac gear is around? I know my lvl 21 fighter has real troubles surviving spawn in groups at times, despite +5 AC gear an DR...


I know it's on Psyco's list, but technically, +5 gear is not CoPaP banned, it is the CoPaP max, as I understand it. A fine point, perhaps, but nonetheless noteworthy.
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Post by Arandil » Thu Apr 07, 2005 3:09 am

And this does hit people who store some of their gear in pers chests allready because they cannot carry what they own, even if they would like to use it actually.


Then don't get it tagged. It's voluntary. And just because you don't get it tagged, doesn't mean a DM is going to automatically loot you dry the next time you visit your death plane.
I really don't see what the fuss is about. Merchants can keep their loot in chests or not get it tagged...if they are merchants they're unlikely to be soloing the LRC much, which is the only kind of situation they're more likely to get looted under. At the end of the day, this is about some old timers being willing to take a bit of inconvenience for the sake of CoPaP.
This is the best solution to this problem I've heard in a long time, and if it does come in, I'll happily get the 2 or 3 +5 items I've got tagged ( I don't have any banned gear afaik ).

Arandil

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Post by Orleron » Thu Apr 07, 2005 8:16 am

Exactly, Arandil. I don't understand the fuss either. I think the major issue here is many of the posters simply do not understand what Psyco is proposing, because all of the counter-arguments seem to have nothing to do with what he was saying.
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Post by Baron » Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:47 am

Nob wrote:
Baron wrote:.

It might behoove the team to simply ask the world to consider NOT giving their gear away when they retire, especially the gear in question. I think the majority of our players would consider it. If even a portion of the gear doesnt get handed down its an improvement.



There's actually a very simple reason why this draconian measure was brought up.

Simply put, not allowing stashes to be handed out as a request didn't work.


Maybe I missed it.. which happens quite often :lol: but I never read any such request by the Avlis team to the players in general...Having been on the team I was well aware of the issue which is why I tossed half of my stuff (some of it OoG property, but the circumstances behind my disappearance made it reasonable to throw it away)

Rockhome even instituted a rule against 1%er type characters doing it, and it still happened.


Thats Rockhome...maybe it would have no effect on Avlis...All I'm saying is that I think that many of Avlis' players would be more than willing to take AT LEAST some of their items with them when they go...if they knew that the Team preferred it so.

While I don't have a problem with the concept of inheritance, it's also problematic that the usual AFTERMATH of it is MASS proliferation of items from a stash, rather than these things just being kept quietly.

Think that's the part that might need to be addressed, hence either undroppable tags, or trade-ins might work if you want to just reduce the number of items, while allowing players to still "bequeath" something.

Make the incentive to prevent proliferation rather than simply removing items.


I dont think the idea is a bad one.. like I said. frankly, I suspect a great many people would actually be bummed to find out that only banned items will get this treatment...I have no doubt that a lot of people would love to get their good gear marked plot/undroppable (that makes the whole naked run a lot less worriesome if your best stuff isnt likely to be taken)
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Post by Starslayer_D » Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:07 am

Orleron, the wording seemed to suggest an:

Tag as plot/undropable item or loose it soon merasure.

Voluntarely, and for some items it seems much more palateable instead of an has to be done mreasure, as that would create difficulties for players for various reasons.

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Post by Orleron » Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:15 pm

Tag as plot/undropable item or loose it soon merasure.



You got it all wrong, Star.

It's:

Volunteer to have item tagged as plot/undroppable or have NO consequences for opting not to.
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Post by Starslayer_D » Thu Apr 07, 2005 2:26 pm

*smiles* Thank you for clarifying.

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Post by Moredo » Thu Apr 07, 2005 3:37 pm

I don't see the problem either, in fact, in the past I've "traded" a Greater Swordsman Belt to get one of my items plot/undropable (but that was so that I'd not lose it in a server crash). But, what I'd hate to see, is DM's looking over the invent of characters and seeing that they haven't done this, and go like: "Woohoo! Time to loot!"

What I mean is, if it's a "if you don't comply you'll lose the item" rule, I'm against it. If not, then sure why not.

Edit wrote:Of course I didn't read all the post before I wrote my own, :roll: but this was what I referred to when I talked about the DM looting business.

Psyco wrote:If everyone has this option, then if these type of items are found on corpses, DMs can loot more freely without feeling guilty (I know some DMs or even worlds would not feel guilty already, but some would) to remove the items. It was the players choice to not have the item marked.


A couple of things though, this should not be applied to weapons. Weapons that are set to undropable can't be disarmed, which would suck.

And, it would diminish the fear of death even more (death by CvC that is). One of the major things that I like with the CoPaP setting is that you're able to loot people. Where I first started out this wasn't an option, and that made CvCs somewhat useless, since most people care more for their items than if their character die.

Thirdly, this should only apply to the really high end items. The immunities in particular. +5 equiv items are far to common, and not really that powerful. Sure a +5 longsword is uber, but a +3, +5 persuade, +5 discipline longsword isn't.

On another note, how big of a problem is this really? Anyone got an idea how many items with those properties that are used in CoPaP?

- Moredo

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Post by slave.of.emotions » Thu Apr 07, 2005 4:28 pm

On another note, how big of a problem is this really? Anyone got an idea how many items with those properties that are used in CoPaP?


Enought to scare me off from going into any CvC with uper gear chars, and that are anyways already higher level and hard to beat.

On other hand i see as well chars that have +5 items on almost each slot when they are under level 20.

And as for taking those items away, saying that players can nothing for some DM giving to many of those out... when you buy a illegal gun and police caches you , they wont let you keep it saying "Hey its not your fault that someone sold it you, so you can keep it"
or you made your driver license as there was no allowed maximal speed on highways so you can keep driving as fast you want while laws changed in mean time.

Only place where i have a issue with that uper gear is when those players show up in quests... kill evrything in few seconds and ruin the fun for others or monsters become harder next time because of them.

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Post by szabot » Thu Apr 07, 2005 4:55 pm

Wow, I don't think I have any items better than +2... :?

Didn't realize this was such a problem. Good thing I don't CvC much. No wonder I always lose when I do, though. :P (Couldn't possibly be my tactics, heh.)

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Post by Orleron » Thu Apr 07, 2005 5:09 pm

Good point about the weapons not disarming, but this would only really be for the so-called "banned" loot, i.e. things that fall into that list that Psycho put up.


I don't think this is too much of a problem, i.e. I don't think there are too many of these items YET. However, with any closed system, like a PW, the number of any item goes UP over time, no matter what you do it seems. Plotifying these items and making them !drop would at least get rid of them from the system when these people possess them stop playing the game down the road.


Btw, DM's loot your corpses of certain items *anyway*, whether this feature exists or not. This has been in effect since day 1 of Avlis. It's just not so common that you hear about it all the time, but DM looting IS an item control measure, and it's done ICly whenever it is done.
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Post by teleri » Thu Apr 07, 2005 7:10 pm

Maybe we need no not make the no drop, but add a script to them that sets them so that the have an "owner" which is set by a variable on the item. that would prevent anyone else from using the item, shocks you (heck can even do some dammage) and it drops to the ground. At this point who cares if they stay in cirrculation they are useless to anyone but the person tagged as the owner.

Just a suggestion. (:
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Post by Tristan_Durst » Thu Apr 07, 2005 7:14 pm

Now that is an Idea Teleri.

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Post by Psyco » Thu Apr 07, 2005 8:37 pm

teleri wrote:Maybe we need no not make the no drop, but add a script to them that sets them so that the have an "owner" which is set by a variable on the item. that would prevent anyone else from using the item, shocks you (heck can even do some dammage) and it drops to the ground. At this point who cares if they stay in cirrculation they are useless to anyone but the person tagged as the owner.

Just a suggestion. (:


- All variables get cleared with the current implementation of persistent chests (an avlis at least)
- The work involved would be just as high (still have to do this to all items)
- Extra lag whenever anyone equips any item do to extra checks in teh onEquip script (small amount, but it all adds up)
- Players get the same penalty, but do not get any benifit from it. They can still not hand anything on, but they also do not get it marked plot.

Its a good idea, but in practice its not really workable. The same people that opt into that would be the same ones that do take their stuff with them anyway.

I have seen two weapons with an onHit dispell, and I have heard about two +5 weapons that i have not directly seen. That the total of what i have seen for banned/uber weapons. The gear getting tagged would not be weapons for the most part. We are not talking +5 equivilent (eg +3 with +5 lore and +5 persuade) we are talking actual +5.



The way I see it is that there are five types of character out there.

1) the ones that have none of this stuff
2) the ones that have 1 or 2 items on the list
3) the ones that have their entire main set of equipment on the list
4) the ones that have more than an entire set, but its all for their own use
5) The "Zachs" (seeing as he seems to be a focus, sorry thaliss)

I would say that most of the items on the list that are out there are in the hands of type 2-3. There would be very few 4's, and all the 5's most would be able to name pretty easily.

The 2-3 people are the ones that IMO would be most willing to go along with this. The 5's IMO would also look at working something out, many (as thaliss has already said) are more than willing to do whats best for copap.

The only people i can see having a real issue with this are the 4's and the 1's.

The 4's are the people that will lose inventory space and not be able to bag their gear if they choose to get it all marked, but this is their choice, nobody is forcing them to do it.

Most 1's will be fine with it, the 1's that I can see complaining are the ones that will say things like "well they have it, and now i have no chance of ever getting it". To be totally blunt I don't care about the complaints of these people. Of course its going to be harder for them to get the uber gear now, thats the point.

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Post by teleri » Fri Apr 08, 2005 12:02 am

To be slighly more blunt than usual I don't think this is a choice anymore. Its a potentialy copap splitting issue we have seen the level of disagreement about it before. Anything should be taged, heck I think its a good idea to tag all items with a "homeworld" type tag if nothing else. Personaly I don't care where the items came from just that they exist and should be limited in usability.

If the avlis chests are stripping variables then that is something that needs to be fixed anyway because that disables a major ability including the artifacing which also sets variables on items from my understanding.
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Post by Tristan_Durst » Fri Apr 08, 2005 1:32 am

Psyco wrote:The way I see it is that there are five types of character out there.

1) the ones that have none of this stuff
2) the ones that have 1 or 2 items on the list
3) the ones that have their entire main set of equipment on the list
4) the ones that have more than an entire set, but its all for their own use
5) The "Zachs" (seeing as he seems to be a focus, sorry thaliss)

I would say that most of the items on the list that are out there are in the hands of type 2-3. There would be very few 4's, and all the 5's most would be able to name pretty easily.

The 2-3 people are the ones that IMO would be most willing to go along with this. The 5's IMO would also look at working something out, many (as thaliss has already said) are more than willing to do whats best for copap.

The only people i can see having a real issue with this are the 4's and the 1's.

The 4's are the people that will lose inventory space and not be able to bag their gear if they choose to get it all marked, but this is their choice, nobody is forcing them to do it.

Most 1's will be fine with it, the 1's that I can see complaining are the ones that will say things like "well they have it, and now i have no chance of ever getting it". To be totally blunt I don't care about the complaints of these people. Of course its going to be harder for them to get the uber gear now, thats the point.


Well according to the articles the “uber” items are not suppose to be given out at all. As with my first post on the subject, in practice that ruling is being ignored. As far as Arborea is concerned NO 1% or banned item will be handed out. We will be doing personalized items only as DM rewards.

I personally feel that the current amount that I have seen as a player and a World Leader is far too much. I am not saying that as a new WIP WL, but a seasoned PnP, and NWN DM. There are some things that I have seen, and heard that people have that I would Never give out, heck there are some things on the Standard Bioware NWN palate I would not give out. +1 Items will be more available on Arborea, seeing that creatures will tougher PCs will need them. This is IC for an outer planer world.

As for the different types of players, type 2-3 players I would personally have no problem with, if they tag their items. Type 4 and 5 should not exist at all. DM reward items should never be given to another player. Hence the name REWARD. The PC was reward for their stellar involvement in a plot, and earned the right to have an Item that was DM rewarded. Type 1 player can always earn a DM reward, but it should not be an “uber” item.

-Tristan
Edited: by myself ;)
Last edited by Tristan_Durst on Fri Apr 08, 2005 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Starslayer_D » Fri Apr 08, 2005 2:16 am

Post made as a pplayer, not as a DM (my DM persona sees the reasonability.. but my min PC is having issues)
Ok, I admit it, I'm screwed over...

I'm a type 4 who over 3 years of play has worked hard and been rewarded by DM's and friends, and now has eg the following stuff wich falls under above proposal:

an Armor wich casts a lvl 8 spell
a vorpal weapon
a spare set of gear in case of loosing primary gear in a crash (not as good gear, but reasonably good gear)
several mementoes from events/friends/character history

if I have to tag all this in addition to the gear I carry, I'm screwed. Plain and simply.

There are two things wich neeed to be adressed in the proposal to make it palateable, imHO

Code: Select all

a) Make pers. chests able to store customnised/offworld/non-palette gear. Currrently several of my chars are allways closeto weight limit because of gifts/customnised things they can't store in a chest at all, including my main.
b) The tagging them as 'not able to store in a bag thing'. Can we tag stuff at the same time as having only 10% of weight? That would make it more palateable to have to take out another fieldplate and add it's weight to the fieldplate I'm wearing, and not being able toi bag it for 80% weight reduction.
c) (in jest) Script an addistional 5 inventory pages..




Is it my fault that I spend a lot of time playing, exploring enriching the world? Things simply accumulate over time, people trade, people quest. The avlis 1%ers all gost very customnised gear.. I'm a 2%er... didn't ahve the ption to roll all my stuff into a bundle.. now I'm supposed to completely block my inventory and get heavy incumbrance?

And yes, Orleron, I did read a lot of the comments in he posts correctly after all maby e Psyco didn't say it, but people proposed making the tagging involuntarely.

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Post by Psyco » Fri Apr 08, 2005 2:40 am

Starslayer_D wrote:a spare set of gear in case of loosing primary gear in a crash (not as good gear, but reasonably good gear)


And that is where amonien (i assume its her you are talking about) can save weight. If your primary gear is marked as plot and no drop, then there is no risk of losing it to a crash or otherwise.

As I said originally, this will cause the problem to get worse at the start. Characters like amonien have a second set of gear as backup. If the primary set is marked plot, this second set will enter the economy where as before it wouldn't have. However, if this second set is sold off as its little to no use to amonien when her primary set is safe, it will appear that there is more of this stuff around. This idea would flush out peoples reserves.

Amonien and other type 4 characters would not be screwed over, they would just have to make choices. is their really a need for 2 sets of uber armour to be carried? Or would they be better off selling a set.

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Post by kombinat » Fri Apr 08, 2005 2:45 am

Or choose not to get it marked plot/non-droppable if it's an issue for the character?

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Post by JollyOrc » Fri Apr 08, 2005 2:47 am

<sidejab> selling stuff could refinance certain moving costs</sidejab>
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Post by Starslayer_D » Fri Apr 08, 2005 5:55 am

*grin* Well, one set of armor is the one worn.. the other, with the spell, was from the first tradein, and used as a disguise. Not really über, but a neat looking armor with hast and imp invisibility once/day. I keep it as Memento, mostly. And use it as disguise in some cases.

I am dead certain that armor will not be handed down, though. Or does anyone really need the armor of Two of the Seven?

But for me it is a neat memento of a part of Amonien's life and deed. Because of the imp invis, though, it will no longer be storeable in the pers chest, as it will be marked. 50 lbs more to lug around :)

You are correct though, Psyco, that some gear will most likely enter the economy at first.
Spare cloak +5, bracers +5. boots of con +5, amulett +5 armor, amulett of wisdom +5, ring of holiness, ring of power, complete set of greater belts would be my spare gear.. allthough the wis amu and the armor amu are not in use due to my amulett from the savernok plot.

And then tere the stuff I would use, but have space weight problems with... Nymph cloak +5, balor sword, and some other things in my wardrobe.

It's not a great amount of things wich I keep.. lets say, one excellent set of gear for another character, then decent (+3 to +4 equivalent) stuff for 2 more people, and some small things.

What would drive a rogue type caster absolutely crazy would be my collection of about 1500+ scrolls of all caster levels, about 200 alone of level nine spells. I hoarded them from day 1 on as celric of magic and knowledge... maybe even more scrolls.. I never really counted...

Thus, the situation of a typical type 4 char...

*chuckles* Actually, doing the economy a favour here by keeping all this out of it.

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Post by Starslayer_D » Fri Apr 08, 2005 6:07 am

kombinat wrote:Or choose not to get it marked plot/non-droppable if it's an issue for the character?


Er... I thought the proposal was by now to take away the choice and make it mandatory.

It it was voluntarely, I would have no beef with it. What I dislike and what gets me on the baricades is Teleri's proposal to make it mandatory to make all gear marked plot/undropable and thus make it impossible to store the stuff inside a pers chest or weight reducing bag.

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