An idea:Removing Healing Kits from CoPaP

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Arkonswrath
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Post by Arkonswrath » Thu Feb 24, 2005 2:58 pm

Psyco wrote:I haven't looked at it, but are the healing kit scripts editable?

If so, then why not just remove the D20 from the DC check of the poisens and disease, leave healing itself as is.

Those wanting to use the kits to get rid of poisen/disease would actually have to put in points to heal then.

Most DCs are ~10-15, so its not a huge investment, but its still an investment. and the bigger diseases have DCs in the 30s, i have seen people fail to heal these under the current system.


Add an AoO in there and I like this idea.

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Post by Fuzz » Wed Mar 02, 2005 8:05 pm

Alexandru Stanicu wrote:Ok what about nd4 where n is the character using the kits heal skill?

The limit I mentioned of 1/game hour ...dont we run ~ 4real min to a game hour? I dont see 1 every 4 min as that bad.

How about nd4 + 1, with a cap of no more than 50% of the target's total hp?

Therefore, someone with 0 skill can heal 1 hitpoint, (bring someone back from bleeding) and someone with a jacked up skill can make the difference between dying and getting a second wind?

Combined with one usage every ingame hour, and you have a decent healing option for the healer types, while not making them ridiculously overpowered, since ultimately they're just bandages, not a healing type spell or potion.

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Post by Khaelindra » Thu Mar 03, 2005 4:41 am

Fuzz wrote:
Alexandru Stanicu wrote:Ok what about nd4 where n is the character using the kits heal skill?

The limit I mentioned of 1/game hour ...dont we run ~ 4real min to a game hour? I dont see 1 every 4 min as that bad.

How about nd4 + 1, with a cap of no more than 50% of the target's total hp?

Therefore, someone with 0 skill can heal 1 hitpoint, (bring someone back from bleeding) and someone with a jacked up skill can make the difference between dying and getting a second wind?

Combined with one usage every ingame hour, and you have a decent healing option for the healer types, while not making them ridiculously overpowered, since ultimately they're just bandages, not a healing type spell or potion.


Limiting the bandage to out-of-combat is much better for gameplay than limiting the use to 1/4 minutes. A timer like that will short-stop any combat-intensive event. Even WITH a cleric present, you won't be able to keep the momentum in an event if people have to linger around for a few minutes to be healed again for the next combat. And that WILL happen...people will simply, out of necessity (due to limited spell-retrieval and the price of potions), take loooong breaks after each combat.

Ever had the PnP-issue where a group was exploring a huge dungeon and each time after a few battles went out and rested for two days (a healing-day and a spell-recovery-day)? You'll see it again.

Donm't put timer-limits on it. You can spread out spells as caster, but you cannot afford to spread out healing across 4 minutes. Not in attractive, challenging combats.

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healing kits

Post by Apandapion » Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:28 am

I've been following this thread with interest, having mostly ignored healing kits in single player games, and having become a healing kit addict online. Some of the issues brought up:

1) The DCs for healing poison and disease are too low.

Yes. Increasing the DC to heal a poison or cure a disease with a kit by 10 points sounds reasonable. Furthermore, since failing on a heal check wastes the kit, there is "consequences for failure" and thus one should not be able to take 20.

2) Healing kits heal too much or too often.

My opinion on this matter is underdeveloped (having only one character and a lowbie at that), but I don't see a reason to slow things down merely for the sake of slowing things down. Hit point totals and spell capacities are the stomach that a party travels on, and Khaelindra's look at the mathematics and ramifications of restricted healing are spot on.

3) Healing kits trivialize clerical healing. (OT, but it has been brought up)

Yes. Entirely. In any situation where you have two effects that do the same thing, one solution is going to work out to be more "optimum". In this case it's healing kits, and by a lot.

Single target healing spells that do a xdy + z effect to a single target should recieve a ((l+1)*.10)*(heal skill) bonus, where l is the spell level. (That's 10% of the heal skill + 10% of the heal skill per spell level.) So in the "I have a 100 healing skill" strongly-focused healer case, that'd be an extra 10 points for a cure minor wounds, an extra 20 points for a cure light, and so forth. This would help cast healing spells keep up with the healing kits a bit.

4) Healing kits should invoke an AoO in combat.

No argument here. I can't think of a compelling argument against it.

5) Healing kits should not be usable in combat.

Healing kit : wrap area, secure wrappings.

Inventory access : remove backpack, open bag, seek out item, remove item, close bag, put backpack back on.

Ok, inventory, except for quickslots, shouldn't be accessable in combat either. They take about the same amount of time once the amount that the character carries becomes non-trivial. Actually, the heal kit is faster.

If you start swinging around the realism bat, you are going to hit a lot of things that you didn't expect to hit. Disallowing healing kits during combat is enough of a balance change that the realism argument should be discarded. And why would you allow them for bleeding targets only? You almost made healing spells and scrolls useful again, and then backed off.

6) Timer limits

Again, see Khaelindra's posts. It might be interesting if you could only use healing kits multiple times in a minute if the + to the kit was higher than the number of kits you've used in that minute. That's a slight throttle that makes kits of more than +1 of significant value, but on the other hand it's not particularly intuitive.

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Post by Malathyre » Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:27 am

The original post by Sarmanos asked about disease and poison. The best solution to me seems to be to take the d20 out of the equation, even if it's only against poison and disease DC's.

In terms of restricting healing kit use, I think the best idea is not allowing their usage in combat. However, I'm not a big fan of this idea even because I don't like taking the option away from players to use them in combat, as it gives low level characters something to do if they are travelling with a higher level group, and secondly, the healing spells that are programmed into NWN (other than Heal itself) just aren't up to healing someone with more than 150 hp's. Perhaps I am misreading the goal, but if the goal is to make clerical spells more attractive than healing kits to use, perhaps the focus should be on empowering spells rather than nerfing healing kits. Potions had a major comeback on Avlis when Elixirs of Heavenly Healing and Elixirs of Exalted Healing on were added to the world and have given those with high hp's something to use again instead of just Heal Potions. It would be great if the same thing could be done for healing spells as well. Healing kit use would certainly drop if they were nerfed, but my guess is that players would just have to buy lots and lots more potions and use those instead, and clerical/druidic healing spells still wouldn't get the job done.
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Post by Baron » Thu Mar 03, 2005 12:43 pm

I'm all for changing the DC of heal kits effecting disease and poison...

I'm all for giving an AoO for their use....

I dont agree with making it impossible to use them in combat, for several reasons, not the least of which is the whole realism argument.

Realism:
Realism in NwN is a Joke...you can used the very self same argument against drinking potions in combat..swapping belts/cloaks/rings what-have-you in combat...it all gets done, why are kits being demonised all of a sudden?

so lets drop the concept that wrapping bandages around a wound is unrealistic...its no more or less unrealistic than reaching into your pack..grabbing a bottle - uncorking it..taking a deep draught of your potion..all the while the sereg is beating you over the head....unless of course you have one of those cool helms with the potion holders and long straws :)

Clerics are useless because of kits:
Nonsense..

Clerics should be good at healing...yes by all means...
clerics should be doing all the healing..sure if at all possible...
if we change kits people will party up and clerics will heal the party...maybe..

Its the same issue as we had with autofail...encounters in NwN far exceed the typical encounter in pnp.. clerics simply cannot keep up..A party of 5 with one cleric in the FoM would be luncheon meat without potions or kits, (assuming of course the FoM is a challenge to them to begin with)..but it really doesnt matter where you go...a party of 5...6th levels in the beetle caves will get beat up nicely if they are forced to rely on a single cleric to keep all of them alive. Clerics simply dont have enough spells to keep more than one or two people alive for a short period of time.. IMO...

Now i will be the first to admit that most clerics dont seem to do much healing right now.. and a lot of that is certainly due to the presence of kits..so what do we do to push things in a different direction, and of course this assumes that clerics want to use their allocated spells purely for healing.

--> Give kit use in combat an AoO
--> Change the DC of disease and poison (when it comes to the kit curing it)
--> Give clerics using kits a bonus for using them
or give non-clerics 50% of their heal skill when using a kit and clerics 100% of their heal skill. or a combination.. maybe clerics get a 50% bonus to their heal skill...Holy warriors get their heal skill...the rest 50% of the skill...


A few things that should be remembered..

1> you only take 20 on kit usage when you are not in combat...in combat you have to roll and kits can fail...theyve failed for me in the past..it can happen..
2> at this point it is almost impossible to eliminate the numbers of kits around...I've only seen +1 and +3 kits for sale..but there are more than enough crafters to ensure that the well connected people with friends are equipped with large quantities of +9 & +12 kits...unless you remove the ability to craft these high level kits, or make the ingrediants more difficult to find...you will not significantly effect the number of them in circulation.

I've been in DM events where ive had to use 6-7 heal potions...in that same event we had dedicated healers with kits...they were completely unable to keep up..and there arent alot of clerics that can cast heal 6-7 times on one player in the party let alone keep another 5-6 people alive...

I guess for me it seems like we are sacrificing the fun of having these monster events all because it seems too unrealistic to wrap ones wounds all the while fighting the undead demi-lich dragon of death. :)
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Re: An idea:Removing Healing Kits from CoPaP

Post by dougnoel » Thu Mar 03, 2005 2:41 pm

Personally, I think nerfing kits is a dead-horse topic. It's been discussed multiple times on Avlis. Nothing has been changed. However, that doesn't mean that there isn't an issue that needs to be resolved. A game producer friend of mine was fond of saying, "You can't find a solution until you know what the question is." After reading this thread and reflecting on it (and others I have read in the past) I finally made a connection I hadn't before. We're asking the wrong questions. So here's some questions and answers:

Question #1: Do healing kits make disease and poison useless?
Sarmanos' started this thread saying that he thinks healing kits make disease and poison useless against anyone with a few healing kits. In general, it seems that immunity magic items are a bigger threat than healing kits. However, Sarmanos could certainly make disease and poison more virulent on his server.
Answer #1: No.

Question #2: Are healing kits overpowered in NWN PW's?
Keep in mind that this question isn't, "How do healing kits compare to curative spells." It has been pointed out many times that healing kits are necessary to stay alive due to the nature of a NWN PW. This is because of the sheer mass of monsters thrown at a party. We ratchet the xp way down for creatures, it makes sense that there should be a balance in their survivability. Healing kits are an excellent gold sink and an excellent boost to the player economy. The rate at which players go through them would indicate that they are not that powerful. Otherwise less would be used. Their cost seems to be well-balanced, as players continue to pump gold into the healing kit machine.
Answer #2: No.

Question #3: Are clerical curative spells underpowered in NWN PW's?
Forget about healing kits. To answer this question, it doesn't matter if healing kits exist or not on a server, or what they can do. If a party of four players (fighter, cleric, rogue, wizard) goes on a dungeon crawl, can the cleric keep the party in good health with his magic? The answer is, "No." Due to the nature of a NWN PW, a prty will encounter many more monsters than would be encountered in a PnP game. The healing output of his spells are so low, that a cleric is better off using his magic to prevent the party from taking damage by improving both defensive and offensive capabilities. Since the party must rely on their combat prowess instead of recuperative abilities to stay alive, clerics themselves generally find themselves drawn to the same roles as fighters. If curative spells were stronger, clerics would be more apt to cast them instead of buffs. If curative spells were stronger, clerics could fulfill their role as healers using the divine powers that set them apart from other characters.
Answer #3: Yes.

By separating healing kits from curative spells, we can approach the real problem: curative spells aren't worth much. It doesn't matter what you do to healing kits, it won't make the spells better. In fact, anything you do to healing kits will make the healing situation worse for players and consequently make the whole experience less fun for players. The root of the problem then, isn't the healing kits - it's the healing spells.

That's my impression anyway...

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Post by Sarmanos » Thu Mar 03, 2005 2:45 pm

There is indeed the issue of Immunity Disease and Poison items but remember someone has to use an item slot for these and most players these days usually would rather have something that seems more powerful to them in that slot. Immunity Disease items just don't have the same popularity they did in the Spite days of Avlis as well.

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Re: An idea:Removing Healing Kits from CoPaP

Post by Tristan_Durst » Thu Mar 03, 2005 2:49 pm

dougnoel wrote: < Big Snip >

By separating healing kits from curative spells, we can approach the real problem: curative spells aren't worth much. It doesn't matter what you do to healing kits, it won't make the spells better. In fact, anything you do to healing kits will make the healing situation worse for players and consequently make the whole experience less fun for players. The root of the problem then, isn't the healing kits - it's the healing spells.

That's my impression anyway...


After reading your post Doug, I have to agree with you. For years in my PnP game, I played a cleric, but since comeing to NWN I tend to play more Fighter/Ranger/Give-me-the-HP-because-I-need-them type characters.

I think I might start another thread on the topic of healing spells.

- Tristan

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Post by dougnoel » Thu Mar 03, 2005 2:52 pm

Sarmanos wrote:There is indeed the issue of Immunity Disease and Poison items but remember someone has to use an item slot for these and most players these days usually would rather have something that seems more powerful to them in that slot. Immunity Disease items just don't have the same popularity they did in the Spite days of Avlis as well.

True, but healing kits are applied afterwards. Healing kits don't make poison and disease useless. In fact, raising the save DCs has the direct effect of making kits worth less compared to curative spells, without hurting their hit point restoring effectiveness.

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Post by Baron » Thu Mar 03, 2005 3:34 pm

By separating healing kits from curative spells, we can approach the real problem: curative spells aren't worth much. It doesn't matter what you do to healing kits, it won't make the spells better. In fact, anything you do to healing kits will make the healing situation worse for players and consequently make the whole experience less fun for players. The root of the problem then, isn't the healing kits - it's the healing spells.


ding ding ding - we have a winner
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Post by Starslayer_D » Fri Mar 04, 2005 4:28 am

Idea, hopefully that's not hardcoded.

Remove the automatic 'take 20' out of combat. This makes heal kits mch less relieable to heal set amounts of HP without a moderate investment into heal skill.
Currently, with a heal skill of 1, you can allways exspect 22 HP's healed out of combat with a +1 kit.
Without the auto-take-20, this suddenly becomes a range of 3-22. Still worthwhile, but no longer a cheaper and superior to CLW thing.

If one invests say 10 pts into heal skill, he suddenly gets a certain basic healing return again. 12-31 pts from a kit +1. But he will have to invest into the heal skill.

This looks like a simple solution covering most points.
a) Makes spells from casters more worthwhile in comparison again
b) Poison and disease get more dangerous again, as you do not automatically beat any DC below 23 with a 1 pt heal skill and a +1 kit.
c) Randomness of results makes kits less powerfull than the current 'sure fire heal' situation.
d) Due to result randomness by a variance of 20 pts, somewhat more heal kits will be needed. Gold sink.
e) Dedicated healers with massive investment into the heal skill will still reap a massive benefit from their skill investment. Actually, their investment will be even more worth it, as people with minimal investment are no longer guranteed a basic amount of healing of 21+ from kits +1.


To be honest: Who currently is buying cure potions? Their randomness makes them worthless in comparison to heal kits, and they draw AoO. And they are way more expensive. For the price of a potion of CCW, I can buy tow kits +12, and get normally more HP#s out of the kits, too.

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Post by kombinat » Fri Mar 04, 2005 4:39 am

Side note: Note it is only a gold sink when healing kits are purchsed from NPC merchants. When they're purchased from crafters, this is not a gold sink as the gold does not leave the economy.

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Post by Apandapion » Fri Mar 04, 2005 7:58 am

kombinat wrote:Side note: Note it is only a gold sink when healing kits are purchsed from NPC merchants. When they're purchased from crafters, this is not a gold sink as the gold does not leave the economy.


Yes and no. As a new player, I've sold stacks of kits, then turned right around and spent the gold at a NPC merchant. Usually when a player is buying something they could make themselves, it's because they have spare cash. And usually, when a player makes something to sell, it's because they need cash. The money travels from one who won't spend it to one who will.

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Post by Fuzz » Mon Mar 07, 2005 4:48 pm

Khaelindra wrote:Limiting the bandage to out-of-combat is much better for gameplay than limiting the use to 1/4 minutes. A timer like that will short-stop any combat-intensive event. Even WITH a cleric present, you won't be able to keep the momentum in an event if people have to linger around for a few minutes to be healed again for the next combat. And that WILL happen...people will simply, out of necessity (due to limited spell-retrieval and the price of potions), take loooong breaks after each combat.

Ever had the PnP-issue where a group was exploring a huge dungeon and each time after a few battles went out and rested for two days (a healing-day and a spell-recovery-day)? You'll see it again.

Donm't put timer-limits on it. You can spread out spells as caster, but you cannot afford to spread out healing across 4 minutes. Not in attractive, challenging combats.

I meant a timer for the target.

For example, you have Fighters A and B, and Healer C. A and B fight, take some damage. C uses a kit on A, healing him up a bit. C then uses a kit on B, heling him as well, but he's still badly wounded. C tries to use another kit on B, but cannot, because B's wounds are already bandaged, for all intents and purposes... that's what kits do. Should C want to heal B again, he/she can do so in one ingame hour, when he/she changes the dressing and slaps on a fresh bandage, since the old ones would no doubt be soaked with blood if the wound was really that bad.

Thus one healer can handle many people, you're just limited in how many times you can use a kit on each injured person. If you look at it from a mild realist perspective, it works. It also doesn't limit a healer's effectiveness, as they can still heal everyone. The big limitation is simply that you can't spam the kits, and they don't heal diseases or poisons. If you look at the equation both Alex and I brought up, it makes characters with high heal skills WAY more effective at healing than they currently are, actually, which would only be fair, considering the number of skillpoints they've devoted to it.

Do the kits replace spells and potions? No. Are they worthless? No.
They just have an alternative role, which is useful in its own right.

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Post by Khaelindra » Tue Mar 08, 2005 3:18 am

Fuzz, it won't work because every character can only be healed once per 4 minutes...in fast-flowing consequetive battles (which among other things most DM-events and most challenging areas are) that simply won't do!!!

I don't care i can heal 20 people in 4 minutes...i care i can only heal every frontline fighter only once per 4 minutes. So after the second combat, with all fighter being wounded and already having had their healing-shot for the hour, you get stuck.


Just to give you the impression: take a mid-level group to the minotaur caves, take Mina along as healer and enact it the way you describe it here. Take a stopwatch and heal every character only one per four minutes...see how far you get.

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Post by WrathoG777 » Wed Mar 09, 2005 3:04 pm

I play a cleric every day.

I can tell you for a fact that my cleric can and does heal a party of 5 with nothing but spells and noone else healing themself. On Avlis, in normal circumstances. Training your party not to use potions or kits is rough, they get paranoid when you let them gets under 50% hit points in combat.

In fact, Baal usualy has heals left over at the end of a day.

I never use kits, and do not even carry them.

I would like to dispel your crazy comments about it not being posible, because I do it all the time.


I think the once per hour heal kits with NO take 20 at all would be an acceptable comprimise. And cures are all based on 1d8, so kits should do 1d8 + skill too.

AND regaurding disease... I think the fort save is not a bonus, but a replacement roll. They make a fort save, and use the heal skill instead if that is higher, ONLY one chance. Not unlimited like kits are now.


On a related note, I think all potions over lvl 3 spells should be removed too. Heal potions are far worse for the game then heal kits will ever be, and are not meant to exist. Check PnP, poitions are only up to lvl 3 spells.

There is a PrC that lets you make potions above lvl 3. If they are implemented somewhere in CoPap... then folks that invest in that PrC should get to make potions for heal, death wards, heavenly healing, etc.

That is my opinion, not nessasarily anyone else's opinon, might just be, but that would be a coincodence, and damnit, sometimes the crap I write is not even my opinion either.

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Post by Khaelindra » Wed Mar 09, 2005 3:22 pm

WrathoG777 wrote:I would like to dispel your crazy comments about it not being posible, because I do it all the time.



You can dispel them them by -NOT- casting cleric spells above 4th level and still not using more than one bandage per hour per person. Not every party has a high-level cleric. In fact, few do. I don't think i know a dozen active clerics of Baal's level. On a player base of how many characters?

He...and by the way Baal isn't representative anyway, as he considers a mission a success if he managed to get everyone into the Abyss....no wonder you have Heal-spells uncast at the end of the day... :lol: :lol: :P :wink:

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Post by Khaelindra » Wed Mar 09, 2005 3:30 pm

WrathoG777 wrote:
On a related note, I think all potions over lvl 3 spells should be removed too. Heal potions are far worse for the game then heal kits will ever be, and are not meant to exist. Check PnP, poitions are only up to lvl 3 spells.


This i'd agree to...it seems that the trend is to bring more and more fancy potions into play, in the end taking the place of scrolls as being a very complete set of portable enchantments...i've seen (Avlis only) potions of Death Ward, Magic Resistance, Superbarkskin, Superstatboost, and a host of other really tentalising potions...of course all topped by the HEAL-potion. I was a bit an the fence on that one actually, but with the coming of the Heavenly Elixer New Style (40%) potion, i feel it's really a good moment to remove the absolute HEAL. Not that i expect it to happen... 8)

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Post by He who is hated by all » Wed Mar 09, 2005 3:43 pm

As per my post on Avlis:

For once, a post that seems very nerf orientated, but I actually agree with. Though I would still keep critical wounds potions in, nothing higher.

It looks mad to see someone heal back 400HP in a few seconds using healing kits, being attacked by 8 or so enemies without any worries. Even worse to see this continually happening with other people healing them. I mean they are bandages, not miracle heals, anyone coming out of a fight would look like an extra from "The Mummy" or a stand in for a toilet roll.

You want to be a healer? Fine, be a healer. They are called Clerics, they have these things called healing spells. Not enough healing? Then you shouldn't be there because you're dying to fast.

As for people saying crafters relying on them? Boohoo. Make something else. Make healing potions instead. Go kill something, go rob a house. There are other things to do.

Blunt as usual :P

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Post by WrathoG777 » Wed Mar 09, 2005 4:19 pm

Baal is only a 16th lvl cleric and does not even focus on healing.

My last cleric, Shem, was a better healer by lvl 12 then Baal ever will be because I invested in the heal domain.

My point is heal kits are not required. All these comments above claim it is impossible for parties to survive at all without heal kits. I do it all the time. Parties can and do survive, even in dungoens, with a cleric or druid healing their party.

I did just fine at low lvls too. A lvl one cleric can use cure light wounds several times, which is like a 50% heal at lvl 1. Add in some cure minor wounds to touch up and your group is golden, that is more effective at low lvls as cure light wounds is later.

That is my opinion, not nessasarily anyone else's opinon, might just be, but that would be a coincodence, and damnit, sometimes the crap I write is not even my opinion either.

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Post by kokobil » Wed Mar 09, 2005 4:55 pm

Before i begin i say that i see it EXACTLY as dougnoel .

For the rest

Wrath you know i DIE to party up with clerics but 2 things happen to me. I never find any or they just don't party up with me for IC reasons.. But whenever i see you on i ALWAYS will try to party with you just because i happened to find you on the server. Yes i meta-game and look on player list all the time to see if i can arrange to party up with a cleric. I am obcessed with clerics, i love them !

The problem is what can i do the rest of the times i don't find you. Not that i can do much anyway since most of areas are deadly for a party without a cleric or a high level wizard ,while a cleric could even solo them sufficiently. You remove the kits and you ll have everybody go roll a cleric because every other class will be damn difficult to play. And then If i happen to see you on the server i may play my figher again so to party up and have some fun. Why all this hate for the kits? The encounters are hard . Without kits they would be pure suicide. The existence of kits benefits clerics again but in a different manner. They can use kits to heal themselves and others so that they keep the spell slots for the other crucial buffs they have. Some have problems with the poison-disease DC's that a heal kit can heal. Well you may change the script of kit as following:

1) Make it provoke an AoO when used in combat
2) Make it not giving the 1d20 if used in combat but to heal as much as the Skill points + wisdom modifier
3) Lower the heal check against disease or poison DC so that you don't need the characters to have godly fort saves to escape the effects of a disease or poison in first place

And this would be the greatest compromise I could do on nerfing the healing kits

At the same time empower the clerical spells to make them actually giving the MAX HP they would give on an ideal roll and perhaps even some more. Same with the potions

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Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2005 5:08 am

Post by Kat » Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:12 pm

um, Ao told me to post here, so I will..

I play a Druid Shifter who is always in a shifted form.. but the problem with shifters are.. despite the description of them being at home in any body is that they can't use any items at all other than potions, they can't even use their emote wands so they can't use healing kits either. So I thought, big deal, I'll just use potions... but thats bad. Potions cost a ton more than healing kits! I could easily get Kits +1 for 50 gold from someone or somewhere and it would heal 20 points, + my heal skill (which everyone puts lots of points into) +1 as well as curing dissease and posion. A cure moderate wounds potion posts around 80 gold or something like that cures me on average, about 15 points and everything hits me when I use it!

So people said, oh, use heavenly healing potions to cure more.. and they cost like 700 gold from other people!

Um, I think this is twofold.. firstly, what can I do? It is really hard to do anything without being able to heal yourself (normally on my own, not a single other person on Mystara for 5 hours yesterday) and even when there are, they expect you to heal yourself. I doubt anyone would like me if I told them to heal me all the time :(. So could you make healing potions cheaper? They aren't anywhere near as good as kits, but cost more!

Ta

WrathoG777
Clueless Prime
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 2:38 pm

Post by WrathoG777 » Fri Mar 18, 2005 2:38 pm

That there is a perfect example.

Potions cost that much for a reason.

Kits are what are a problem. They need some kind of fixing. Be it price, use timer, non-combat, 1d8 instead 1d20, no-take 20, fix disease/poison problem, etc Something needs to be done.

Now maybe the answer is that potions need more availablity and kits need less? Maybe kits need high prices at shops like potions, and crafters selling them for lower to players? I am not going to claim to have the best answers.

That is my opinion, not nessasarily anyone else's opinon, might just be, but that would be a coincodence, and damnit, sometimes the crap I write is not even my opinion either.

Khaelindra
Groundling
Posts: 94
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2004 5:48 am
Location: Deventer, the Netherlands

Post by Khaelindra » Fri Mar 18, 2005 4:09 pm

WrathoG777 wrote:That there is a perfect example.
.


Actually it's the perfect contra-example, as Kat describes the only situation in which potions -ARE- vastly superior to kits. 8)

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