Pro's and Con's of the CEP

Discuss any general matters related to CoPaP here!
Orleron
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Post by Orleron » Fri Feb 27, 2004 3:44 pm

Just a thought, why not use the model/texture hak paks of CEP and update the CoPaP 2da hak to reflect the new items offered. That way there will be no need to change the items in your modules that are there now and you still get the benefits of CEP.

Yes, Corbett. This is the idea.
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Post by Malathyre » Fri Feb 27, 2004 5:11 pm

I have never been intimidated off of a game or program that I needed/wanted just because of download size, personally. However, I do have high speed connections I can use, and cd-burners at my disposal, that might not be the case for everyone. I think it would really depend upon how huge it gets. The avlis custom installer is already 179 megs....on a dial-up connection, this is forever and a day (if someone is pulling 5k/sec....that's a loooong time). This hasn't scared too many people off, I don't think...but I don't know what the max size is before people start fleeing.
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Post by Nighthawk4 » Sun Feb 29, 2004 8:34 am

As a user of a 56k Dialup connection, with no hope of ever getting a Broadband option (rural area), can I please ask that the part of this which is actually going to be used is extracted and used in a HAK instead. If I have to download large files, then that is acceptable as long as they are going to be used.

However, to download a huge file which is full of stuff we are never going to use or which we have already is a bit much when it takes hours to download it.
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Orleron
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Post by Orleron » Sun Feb 29, 2004 10:57 am

Again, if you go through the list of stuff in the CEP, you would see that we would use like 90% of it, even on Avlis.
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"My name is Orleron...a dungeonmaster...two years ago I got shot through a game client...I'm in a distant part of the internet aboard these servers of escaped mental patients...my players. I've made enemies, stupid, and annoying...now all I want to do is make CoPaP a reality, to warn Earth...Look inward(to your monitor) and share the newbies I've seen..."

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Post by Red Golem » Mon Mar 01, 2004 4:33 pm

Another thing to keep in mind is that if the final CEP gains popularity and other PW servers and downloadable standalone modules use it, then players will need to download it anyway just to play downloadable modules and other PW servers. This means that as long as we use the CEP as-is (and not some modified version), then the CEP would be something that most players will have anyways.

I'd suggest holding off on adopting the CEP until the package is finalized though.
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Post by Fuzz » Mon Mar 01, 2004 7:12 pm

http://nwn.bioware.com/gallery/index.ht ... enimage=13

That is all.

(aka Yes, we should use it)

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Post by tindertwiggy » Tue Mar 02, 2004 9:28 am

Orleron wrote:Avlis still sells merchandise on cafepress.com. We have thought about putting our hakpaks on CD up there for people to buy cheaply. The problem with that is the rate at which the hakpak changes. I've been waiting for a stable, virtually mistake-free, hakpak to be able to do that with. However, we may just have to bite the bullet and put whatever we've got up there and let people download the corrections as needed.
Once we go 1.62 and hotu, couldn't we put the larger portion of the haks on a cd, the larger portion that is least likely to change. I see the CEP as part of this.

An idea is all.

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Post by eNTrOpY » Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:16 am

If we can get the haks + CEP onto a CD then I can see the benefits of this.

I doubt that we would lose established players due to download size, they're all addicted now and won't be able to get away even with this as an excuse :D.

The problem with download size that I would forsee is the loss of incoming players, players who haven't been hooked or are looking to just try a PW without the need to download huge files. Right now, our hakpaks aren't unreasonable, but requiring a 200MB download would definately be pushing it, especially on those with dial up connections.

One potential way to avoid this loss of new blood would be for each world to designate a server NON-CEP. Preferably a server that is pretty established and that has enough of a player base. For Avlis specifically, I would suggest Mikona. I know that Orleron wanted to keep Mikona hakpak free for exactly the reason I spelt out above, to give new players a chance to try out Avlis without needing to download hakpaks. I believe Mikona is still a good choice for this. Mikona is pretty "complete", not many areas are being added to it and most importantly, Mikona receives a decent amount of our player base.

I can't give a suggestion for the other worlds in COPAP as I haven't really had a chance to visit them, but I would suggest a similar course of action, leaving one server non-cep so that people looking to try a PW can do so without having to download 200MB.

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Post by draconis » Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:35 am

I feel this is exactly what COPAP needs to keep future growth alive and easy. I see all new worlds being able to connect with a lot less custom work on the builders parts.

And for the players it is easier because one hak, even if large, would be used on all worlds (if 90% of CEP hak is used on each world). Unlike now where players have to run around to get all the haks for each world. This would make it easier for the less techinical players. They would likely not care much about the download size if "ease of use" was gained.


Plus, the content is so cool that how can it be ignored! :lol:

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Post by Guest » Tue Mar 02, 2004 12:56 pm

mueller wrote:i cant think of anyone who doesnt have access to high speed internet, whether at their house, their school, or their friends house. I know last night I downloaded 3 650 Mb files. If your FTP can send stuff out at 200-500 Kb/s, the majority of avlis would download it without a problem.
Well I for one have absolutely no access to high speed internet.

To keep playing Avlis I would happily download 100MB extra. I'd grumble about 200MB but do it. 300 I would swear and curse and spit the dummy, but I would do it. 400Mb and you would not see me for dust unless I could convince another player to burn a CD and post it to me.

The bigger problem would be that newbies without high-speed links would be very put off by anything over 100MB. YOu would probably balance that by getting more people with high speed links who would be attracted by the extra features though.

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Post by Jordicus » Wed Mar 03, 2004 9:16 am

draconis wrote:I feel this is exactly what COPAP needs to keep future growth alive and easy. I see all new worlds being able to connect with a lot less custom work on the builders parts.

And for the players it is easier because one hak, even if large, would be used on all worlds (if 90% of CEP hak is used on each world). Unlike now where players have to run around to get all the haks for each world. This would make it easier for the less techinical players. They would likely not care much about the download size if "ease of use" was gained.
the CEP does NOT contain any tilesets. so even if we implemented it, you would still have to download all the different haks for each CoPaP world. the CEP is more similar to our Universal2.5 hak that is used for all of CoPaP, which would still be needed.

so you are not saving any downloading by implementing the CEP for CoPaP worlds, you are actually just increasing the amount of downloads needed
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Orleron
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Post by Orleron » Wed Mar 03, 2004 1:01 pm

Correct, but UniversalHak would indeed become smaller because we could remove all the redundant stuff from it, such as Lisa's clothing, and probably most if not all of our item models that we have in there.

I forgot to check if the CEP will have head models in it too, because if it does have the head models that we already use, then we'll basically be able to remove MOST of the UniversalHak. Only our new races, such as dracon, would be in there in the end. It would actually become quite small in reality.

I'm betting that with a 200 MB CEP, and removal of redundant objects, the UniversalHak will be no more than 20 or 30 MB zipped.

Given that our polls indicate everyone plans to download the CEP anyway whether or not CoPaP uses it, you are now not talking about a 300 MB+ download, but rather a 20 to 40 MB download which is usable with your CEP that you got separately from elsewhere.
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Post by Nob » Wed Mar 03, 2004 4:07 pm

The biggest problem I see is with the current custom content being overwritten.

There already was a huge number of problems with character heads when HotU began to get circulated, and it'd honestly be a bit strange(not to mention unfair) for something like 90% of the custom models to suddenly be switched because we implemented CEP, particularly given that character edits/rerolls to fix those changes or editing items to reflect the new 2da orders would never happen.

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Post by Orleron » Wed Mar 03, 2004 8:57 pm

I don't think that would happen. The problems with the heads was a special case that occurred with HoTU expansion. Having that same kind of problem occur again is unlikely. There would need to be a new 2da hak made, but those haks are small anyway.

I also would not stand for mass amounts of heads or items being "broken" in this way.
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"My name is Orleron...a dungeonmaster...two years ago I got shot through a game client...I'm in a distant part of the internet aboard these servers of escaped mental patients...my players. I've made enemies, stupid, and annoying...now all I want to do is make CoPaP a reality, to warn Earth...Look inward(to your monitor) and share the newbies I've seen..."

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Post by MorphlingROR » Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:49 pm

Well, it doesn't matter how big it will be and how long it will take for me to download, but I will definitely get it. And I would really love to see CoPaP using it.

I am pretty sure a lot of PWs and just stand-alone modules will switch to using it with time anyway, so most players will have it downloaded.

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