Balancing psionics

[Druid523]

A few things.

I do think that psionics should have been Charisma-based instead of Wisdom-Based

I think perhaps your suggestion might apply to a few powers here and there. For example, the Attraction power is WIS based. However, if one had a high enough CHA, perhaps that could add to the DC or some such. But the DCs are already uber high, so let's not go there.

ehm, i am playing a psion and its ALWAYS the same DC

Okay, that's true...if you're playing your psion with whatever powers you have access to. That's not true if you're playing, say, my psion who has a few powers different from your psion that have different DCs. As was said already, other powers, such as Disintegrate, have lower DCs.

Psions aren't WIS based monsters, to play a useful well rounded psion, you have to have fairly decent stats in INT WIS and CON, otherwise they'll be one trick ponies.

I couldn't agree more with that.

Theres lots of psion combinations. Not every psion is going to be a 2 monk-20 psion that shape changes into a dragon and slaps people while using haste and flesh armor.

Exactly! Oh. One thing, though, GuiltySpark. I'm sure you agree with this, but maybe it's worth saying for everyone else, too. Balancing out the numbers and game mechanics of it all is necessary for things to be relatively fair. Fair is good. But, as you said, this is a roleplaying collection of servers. Let's all try to remember that, too.

You can manifest powers while in ectoplasmic form, but you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + power level) for each power you attempt to manifest.

You cannot physically attack, you lose supernatural abilities (if any), and you can’t speak while in ectoplasmic form.

That was from whatever sourcebook SoE got that from. Okay...they make a distinction between psionic powers and supernatural abilities. Now, I may be wrong (because God knows my memory sucks ass), but one of the things I've been hearing about Shapechange is that when you Shapechange you shouldn't be able to use psionic powers or some such because it says you can't use supernatural abilities. And in Ectoplasmic Form, it also says you can't use supernatural abilities! But before that, it says you can manifest powers while in Ectoplasmic Form. So I guess psionic powers are different than supernatural abilities. And, in this case, semantics is important.


Um...I kinda forgot what else I wanted to say. Later!

-Sceluscio Potementia

[Orleron]

Now is a good time to reiterate that CoPaP does not hold Balance as a priority. Balance is a good thing to have within reason, however the object of Balance is NOT to make all classes equal. Some classes ARE better than others, depending on who you ask. That is something we do not intend to ever change.

Once you set down the path of nerfing, forever will it dominate your destiny.


Thus, we hold nerfing to be a low, almost non-existent, priority.

[Fuzz]

As Orl has said, Balance in class has never been a priority for CoPaP, ever.

As to the arguments about Psionics being based on 2nd Edition... would you really prefer 3rd Edition Psionics? Seriously, if you think Psions are powerful now, go read the 3rd Edition Psionics Handbook. Go read it. Compare it to any other base class. 3rd Edition Psionics is pretty much unanimously agreed to be FAR more powerful than 2nd Edition. In addition, last I checked CoPaP itself is almost entirely based off of 2nd Edition Planescape, not 3rd Edition. Looking at several world websites, we see links to 2nd Edition source material.

The conclusion? CoPaP is an amalgam of 2nd and 3rd Edition. In some cases, 3.5 is used for certain classes/feats/spells. (HotU Epic Feats) We work with what we have, and what is easiest to implement effectively and accurately.


In response to Psionics being Charisma based... sure, I could see that. If we were using 3rd Edition. However, we are not. In 2nd Edition, Psionics were about mental focus, thus the primary stat for them was Wisdom. Bear in mind that the attribute system in 2nd Edition stood for very different things than it does in 3rd Edition, which most people seem to quote. Hell, if you had high Wisdom in 2nd Edition, you got more experience, because you learned more from every encounter. Thus psionics are about self-discipline, meditation, and focus. All these things are attributed to Wisdom, stemming from the fact that Monks use Wisdom for all their monk bonuses. Charisma plays its role via Telepathy powers which boost Cha-based skills like Persuade and Bluff.


To be perfectly honest, yeah, Monk/Psion is a nice build, which is pretty powerful. but Loki is correct, it is NOT the most powerful Psion build, not by a long shot. Up until now, Glocknall, WrathOG and I refrained from discussing what we discovered was the most powerful build, which was the Cleric/Fighter/Psion, but yeah... there it is. Cleric/Fighter is already ridiculously good. Add in a handful of Psion levels for buffs that stack with spells and make the Fighter/Cleric even more of a melee powerhouse. Let's not forget Darkfire and GMW, so the character can also make their weapon +5 and do elemental damage, and also has militant bonuses from the Fighter levels, as well as all the important combat feats, one would think.

Summary:
There will always be powerful and "uber" builds. Deal with it.

CoPaP is about RP in the end, and for every powerbuilt character with minmaxed stats and just the right selection of classes, there are at least 2-3 rounded characters, who have taken classes and feats for RP reasons rather than making the most badass character they possibly can. This is my experience, at least. You have a problem with those characters that play a "power build" by your definition, then avoid them. No one is forcing you to RP with them, or even acknowledge them, and I severely doubt they will stay awake at night, lamenting the fact that their character is unable to contact yours ingame. Thus everyone wins, you go on playing YOUR character, and you stop worrying about whatever the fuck anyone else is doing.


Play the game for yourself, stop worrying about what everyone else is doing. If you judge your own worth based on the actions and accomplishments of others, you will find you will always be disappointed in life.

[teleri]

Now is a good time to reiterate that CoPaP does not hold Balance as a priority. Balance is a good thing to have within reason, however the object of Balance is NOT to make all classes equal. Some classes ARE better than others, depending on who you ask. That is something we do not intend to ever change.

Once you set down the path of nerfing, forever will it dominate your destiny.


Thus, we hold nerfing to be a low, almost non-existent, priority.

This and Fuzz's coment are both very very true and the power of a particualr build is also dependant upon the level of the Charactersome builds are insane at low levels and others are insane at high levels. I have no issue with play balance in the sense that PC vs PC one class is better than another (IMHO as a player MAGES are GODS (: ) but I know that for many many levels this is untrue by stats and comairison (: .

I am more worried about the overall balance of the game as a whole "for every action thereis an equal and opposite reaction" and at this tiem there is not really one for the Psi powers unless a DM tries to handle them (usually fails from my current expience not a slight just not enough DM's with a lot of PSI play time).

I know that there are folks working on an AI for PSI that can be added to to the existing critters and this is one of the things I am waiting for.

By the planescape setting pretty much everything in the planes is PSI of almost equal ability to thier level so a PSI in the planes is in real trouble one it all works. (:

[Meredia]

Bleh. Ignore this. I had something here about the alignment, but was misinformed as to its adjustability.

[LadyPhoenix77]

Any non-chaotic are the requirements for what is around CoPaP.

[Final Shinryuu]

The psionics system is based off of second edition psionics, which was non-chaotic alignment only. It was a decision of the creator of this system to do it this way.

If the team of Abyss 404 wishes to change or alter this system on your world to function differently, then you are welcome to do so. Every world uses different versions of it as best suits them, same as with the spellhooking and magic systems.

[Themicles]

The psionics system is based off of second edition psionics, which was non-chaotic alignment only. It was a decision of the creator of this system to do it this way.

If the team of Abyss 404 wishes to change or alter this system on your world to function differently, then you are welcome to do so. Every world uses different versions of it as best suits them, same as with the spellhooking and magic systems.

Keep in mind that Final Shinryuu does not mean editing class 2das.

You don't have to do that to make psionics fit your world.

All psionic ability scripts are there for the editing, though.

[Final Shinryuu]

Yup, all the powers are very easy to edit. It's just like editing the spellhooking, really! So you can change or add new functionality to powers or rebalance them however you like.

[terryrayc]

Removed because I didn't pay attention to the date.

[Final Shinryuu]

Terry, cool down, we were responding to Meredia's question (which she removed) asking why the class was non-chaotic alignment only.
The answer we gave was that it's all easily adjustable.
Nobody has been arguing balance for months now.

[terryrayc]

you are right...I was tired and didn't look at the dates...LOL sigh..I need a nap, been one hell of a long day and it's only 3:30.

[Final Shinryuu]

It's alright, I'm feeling the same way, it's been a tiring day here too!