Tieflings

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akumadaimyo
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Tieflings

Post by akumadaimyo »

So whats this about Tiefling having to have 2 levels or so of some outsider class? Why isnt the ECL incorporated? It kinda stinks having to lose a class. Means I can only be two classes one of which includes a prestiege class. Guess I can just be a single class rogue or something and deal. I've just seen everyone else code in the ECL for it.

Now can Tieflings have a tail? Do I put that in somehow or does the staff?
Orleron
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Post by Orleron »

The 2 levels of Outsider class IS the ECL. That's very close to how it's done in the official 3rd Edition D&D rules. Sacrificing the ability to have 3 classes is just your price for playing a custom race.
Avlis: http://www.avlis.org

"My name is Orleron...a dungeonmaster...two years ago I got shot through a game client...I'm in a distant part of the internet aboard these servers of escaped mental patients...my players. I've made enemies, stupid, and annoying...now all I want to do is make CoPaP a reality, to warn Earth...Look inward(to your monitor) and share the newbies I've seen..."
akumadaimyo
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Tieflings

Post by akumadaimyo »

I dont see how thats close to how its done at all. You dont have levels of anything. You just have the ECL+1 and need more exp to level up and are also treated as being higher level when you do level up. The only plus side is you start at 1st level with 2cd level gold. I have never seen this 2 lvls of outsider deal anywhere. Unless your refearing to Savage Species? But I dont think thats really the standard way of doing it. Its more of a way to give more options on how to do the whole ECL deal. Also, in shouldnt it only be ONE level of outsider? Tiefling is only ECL+1 which is the equivalent of one class level yet you have to have two levels? That means starting off your like a 3rd level character.(2 lvls of outsider plus one character level.) That doesnt make much sense to me at all. It should be more of one level of outsider and one pc level. (Thus a 2cd level PC which would equal the ECL of +1 added to the characters other class.) Or is it that you start out as a lvl 2 outsider with no "adventuring" class?
Orleron
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Post by Orleron »

I dont see how thats close to how its done at all. You dont have levels of anything. You just have the ECL+1 and need more exp to level up and are also treated as being higher level when you do level up.
Not true. I believe the DMG talks about adding levels of "monster" or other classes as the ECL. When this system was designed, Savage Species was not out yet, so we got the idea from somewhere, i.e. the DMG.

The ECL is +2 and not +1 because the tiefling race was originally started on Abyss404 for CoPaP, and on Abyss404 ALL races have an ECL of +2, which effectively starts them off at 3rd level so they can withstand the rigors of the place and not die continuously.
Avlis: http://www.avlis.org

"My name is Orleron...a dungeonmaster...two years ago I got shot through a game client...I'm in a distant part of the internet aboard these servers of escaped mental patients...my players. I've made enemies, stupid, and annoying...now all I want to do is make CoPaP a reality, to warn Earth...Look inward(to your monitor) and share the newbies I've seen..."
akumadaimyo
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Post by akumadaimyo »

That was the DMG. The real way of doing ECLs was introduced in the forgotten realms book. Its weird that you guy use a race from FR but not their rules for implementing ECL.

Also if everything is ECL +2 then wouldnt some races get a unfair advantage? Some races are higher or lower than that as a ECL.

Does that also mean that everyone starts off at 3rd level? Otherwise I get to be something more powerfull than a standard level PC AND Im higher level starting off. That would be pretty unfair to a human to have to start off at 1st level while the other person gets to be a tiefling who is also higher level than him on top of it with no ECL to drag down his exp gain either.

Also then does that mean you dont get to have a adventuring class as your first class? (IE a rogue doesnt get to have the starting skill points or a fighter the starting feats and hitpoints?)

Lastly do you still have a ECL on top of having those two levels of outsider? I'd hope not because It sounds like the two levels of outsider are supposed to take care of the need for a ECL at all.
Orleron
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Post by Orleron »

Last question first:
ECL is the two levels of outsider. There is no additional thing to it. No such thing as 2 levels of outsider AND an ECL of 2. That is not how it works.

The rest of the questions:
"Fairness" and "Equality" in starting power of (insert race) or (insert class) was never an issue for us. We never said that all things were or were supposed to be fair or equal in terms of power, because this group of servers does not think in terms of pvp power so much as it thinks in terms of roleplaying ability. So there will be many many many examples of times when one race gets an "unfair" advantage in one situation or another. It's an issue we just do not address here, for RP reasons, and because we believe it's more trouble than it's worth.
Avlis: http://www.avlis.org

"My name is Orleron...a dungeonmaster...two years ago I got shot through a game client...I'm in a distant part of the internet aboard these servers of escaped mental patients...my players. I've made enemies, stupid, and annoying...now all I want to do is make CoPaP a reality, to warn Earth...Look inward(to your monitor) and share the newbies I've seen..."
akumadaimyo
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Tieflings

Post by akumadaimyo »

Then why play anything but a more powerfull race if there is no balancing out for it? It also has to do with coperative play as well you know. If someone else is far more powerfull than me and gets all the kills and XP I will get resentfull. There must be some kind of fairness and balance. PVP will happen too even with RP involved. Peopel will get upset if someone else is too powerfull to kill and there is no balance at all. Thats what ECL was supposed to do. WIthout it humans and other normal races are pretty weak in comparison. Im not sure I like this at all. So I get to play a more powerfull race than everyone else and they get stuck playing a normal 1st level character and I get to be 3rd level AND a custom race with no real penalties for it? Why have standard races at all then? :-(

What about my other questions too?
akumadaimyo
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Thanks BTW and CEP

Post by akumadaimyo »

I did want to thank you for answering my questions btw. I also wanted some help with the CEP stuff. I try making some of my own stuff but it wont save it and I also would love to know how to work it into single player. I loved some of the more asian armor and things for ninja style clothes.
Orleron
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Post by Orleron »

You are thinking too much in terms of min-maxing of stats. We do not encourage that and we try not to think that way ourselves.

Why play anything but a "powerful" race?
Because there are other reasons to play the game besides being powerful in terms of stats and levels.

Why would someone want to be one of these 1st level humans when they could be a 3rd level tiefling?
As above. Because humans can have cool background stories that a player may want to explore and develop. Power does not enter into it.

What happens when my "powerful" race just starts mopping up the xp and killing everything in sight?
People don't care much about the xp you are mopping up. (We also have code on some CoPaP servers that prevents that.) They care more about the social experience of it, and the overall fun of the storyline causing them to kill things in the first place. IF your "powerful" character decides to bully people, then one of those little 1st level humans who also happens to be the head of an organization containing many other powerful PC's will just order your death, and you'll understand the true meaning of power.


But why (insert objection for making X class or Y race weaker or more powerful in terms of stats and abilities)?
Because it's not about making the most powerful character in terms of stats and abilities. There is SOME balance to a point, but not a very large degree. The point of it is to roleplay and develop personality, not stats.


I'd rather have a character that you could make a good movie about than a character who has ph4t leWt and can r0xXoR joo.
Avlis: http://www.avlis.org

"My name is Orleron...a dungeonmaster...two years ago I got shot through a game client...I'm in a distant part of the internet aboard these servers of escaped mental patients...my players. I've made enemies, stupid, and annoying...now all I want to do is make CoPaP a reality, to warn Earth...Look inward(to your monitor) and share the newbies I've seen..."
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Post by Guest »

I dont recall saying I wanted a uber pc. If I did would I give a damn about ECL or balance? Not really. Saying that you dont insitute a balance because of RP reasons makes no sense at all. It should be the oppostie. So there is really no balancing agent at all?

Also you forget so many things in terms of RP. Just cause Im a more powerfull race doesnt also mean I couldnt be head of a organization also. Your reasonings make no sense at all. Pretty much there is really nothing at all to stop a more powerfull race PC at all besides other players.

You also act like a more powerfull race cant have RP behind it. It can. What Im saying is if I can play a more powerfull race with no real disabilites to it AND get my RP why in the world would I play a weaker race? There is no real tangible reason to play a standard race at all. They dont gain xp quicker, they dont start off with more levels. There is no reason at all besides RP, which the other PC can have as well.
Guest

Post by Guest »

Lastly if the point of it is RP then why have any custom races which are mroe powerfull than the standard races at all? Take away a lot of the powers those races get and you'll quickly see that not at many people want to play one anymore.

All RPG games have some element of min/maxing to them even in the RP ones. A server that emphasis RP should probably have some kind of way to balance things out with the more powerfull PCs. Things like Tiefling and Drow have ECL for a reason which is to help level the playing field.

I also heard you say a 1st level PC as the head of a organzitation? At 1st level? Thats a bit hard to suspend disbelief. Why dont the humans get a few levels tacked on as well? If anything the tieflings and other custom races like that should probably have less levels to start with and the standard races more. Cause how does making the tiefling even more powerfull help add to RP? It doesnt. It just makes them even stronger and on a RP server that makes no sense to me at all.
Orleron
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Post by Orleron »

It sounds like you don't understand me, and I don't think I'm able to write it any more clearly.

Yes, you can roleplay with any race, custom OR standard. Each race has different *background stories* that may or may not be intriguing to someone. The biggest reason to play one of the "non-powerful" races is because of background story. ***Because the player doing it simply likes to.***

As proof, I offer evidence: CoPaP. At present, there are 119 people logged on our servers. We must be doing something right.
Avlis: http://www.avlis.org

"My name is Orleron...a dungeonmaster...two years ago I got shot through a game client...I'm in a distant part of the internet aboard these servers of escaped mental patients...my players. I've made enemies, stupid, and annoying...now all I want to do is make CoPaP a reality, to warn Earth...Look inward(to your monitor) and share the newbies I've seen..."
Vichan Lyonsen
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Post by Vichan Lyonsen »

Anonymous wrote:What Im saying is if I can play a more powerfull race with no real disabilites to it AND get my RP why in the world would I play a weaker race? .
I think what Orl is trying to say is....."I dont know"... its apparant you would not play a weaker race...but there are many other players who couldnt care less about innate abilities of their race.

These people are not better than you, they are not by definition better Roleplayers. All Orleron is trying to say is, not everyone looks at the game the same way.

We have players who purposely select the weakest race possible and on top of that they select "builds" or "Templates" that also are notoriously weak....they then join the game and play being somebody else's slave or underling.

Its all about personal preference and not about power...at least for some...we have also players who like you want every advantage they can get.....As I've said before, there is absolutely nothing wrong with this, it is up to you to create a PC that entertains you and hopefully everyone else you encounter.

So by all means, pick whatever race you wish, with whatever superior abilities and game on...what comes of it, is what you make of it and how the world reacts.....who could ask for more.

B/V/V
Minor DM (Avlis)
akumadaimyo
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Post by akumadaimyo »

Well I would play one but I do find tieflins to be interesting. I was jsut worried about the fact Im getting a pretty hefty advantage over everyone else.

Odd though that I got no e-mail notificiations that people had responded. I thought no one was responding at all. Stupid notifications not working. :-P
Serpentax
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Post by Serpentax »

i can at least say on 404 ... al subraces have the +2 ECL..

you gain hp, saves but lose the 3 class option and gain class powers slower... as your lvl 3 when your lvl 1 in your class.

this means as a tiefling mage you would need to be lvl 5 to get 2nd lvl spells.. as you'r 2/3

as you see playing a subrace with +ECL may make life easier to begin with (and on 404 kepe you alive) but you will gain class powers slower than a pure race character...

a lvl 2/1 tiefling/mage is far weaker than a lvl 3 human mage, because of the spells.. the +2ab and hp/saves balance out that fact..

404 is not intended for lvl 1 characters, we have some.. but most tend to find the place a deathtrap, which is how we wanted it to be

:)
Gairus
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Post by Gairus »

The other servers try to fudge this a little by using the same system but giving no HP, so that it's less of a boost :)

(You get only con bonus for the ECL levels elsewhere - that's a good 16 HP difference :)))
akumadaimyo
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Post by akumadaimyo »

Hmm ok. I need to do the app thing all over again but Im lazy even with things for fun so who knows when I will be able to get to it again. Darnit. :-(
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