Regarding Shifter classes and low magic world..

Development for CoPaP
Serpentax
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Regarding Shifter classes and low magic world..

Post by Serpentax »

Ok, to save space i'll skip the details..suffice to save i play shifters a heck of a lot and know the class well.
In abyss 404 i was one of the (in not the only) shifter pc and have found a few things with regards to shifters and low magic worlds..

Shifters are far to powerful in terms of immunities and speical abilities they gain, by the time i had level 3 shifter i was wandering around 404 slaying everything that didn't have magical weapons.. not caring if it took 10 minuites or more to kill them, as they couldn't hurt me...

After a lot of descussion myself and Red Golem set about nerfing the class (at first) then remaking it to fit the balance better..
we did this with sticking to 2 rules...

1- the whole remake was to be server side only
2- the class must still be fun to play, and be able to hold its own

I strongly advise any Dm's on the Copap worlds that are updating to HotU to go and make a shifter pc in a single player game and take a look at just how insanly powerful it gets.
at later levels it can be immune to crits, sneak, death, one form is even 100% spell immune L1-L8... ok each form has draw backs but in the hands of a well versed player shifters can be extremly dangeorus to plot.. (for example in 404 my shifter at level 10 could waste any number of gith scouts without damage as they could not harm him due to DR 15/+1))
ok 15/+1 may not sound bad.. but one you hit epic levels it gets plain silly.. some of the undead forms are 50% damage immune and crit/sneak immune AND have DR 15/+3 or so on top if that..

Check http://www.gamefaqs.com for a great shifter guide including all stats of all forms

If there are any worlds that do wish to edit the shifter forms, to add balance or even just role-play depth to their servers let me know an dill tell you how to tweak them

(its all simple 2da/item/script work to do)
new forms can be added and current ones changed to suit your PW and it will only effect shifter pc's there (ie if they change worlds they will get the forms the other world allows..)

Feedback & questions welcome..
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Post by Jeff »

Perhaps specific areas could be added that would challenge a shifter PC more? Personally I'm not in favor of nerfing PC's if other options can be explored first.
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Serpentax
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Post by Serpentax »

its not a case of nerfing.. its a case of changing to fit your pw..

remove or lower DR's and add different abilities
get rid of at will spells and grant better but limited ones etc..

best example is to look at the changes we have planned in 404 (not currently in game btw.. but they are working 100% on my pc)

http://abyss404.d2g.com/forum_viewtopic.php?15.1715

that gives an idea of what i mean by changing, not nerfing.
(btw if you do make shifter changes to your pw's please dont use any of the forms i have made, we want to keep them 404 only, as a shock to CoPaP pc's that pop in there)
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Post by Red Golem »

Another example of the inbalance is the default Basilisk shifter form - it lets you have unlimited use/day petrification gaze at shifter level 5. Now imagine a bunch of players using that and making statues all over your server...
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Post by Orleron »

Geez... that's rough. I know on Avlis we plan to alter some of the forms the shifter can use. For instance, we plan on disallowing the drow form, since there are no drow on Avlis. I'm not sure if we will be doing other stuff. Also gotta remember that on Avlis, you need to do a quest to get these PrC's and the shifter quest is not slated to go in for a while yet.
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Post by Gairus »

Nitpick:
Basilisk is NOT unlimited times/day. Those spell like abilities display as unlimited due to some technical limitation or other. Number of uses goes up with levels - once you exceed the number it gives you a message. Looks a bit misleading with the basilisk because it fires off the graphical effect without doing the petrification effect :)

There are exceptions - Manticore spikes and Rakshasa Ice Storms being rather notable. They were the devs (Can't remember which dev - was stated just before HotU came out, along with the reason it displayed all abilities as unlimited) way of allowing ranged attacks after not being able to make ranged weapon properties to work properly.

No disagreement on anything else - nothing sounds better than having shifter forms unique in different worlds. Make an interesting class more so :)
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Post by Serpentax »

Gairus, your right it isn't unlimitied..
but in a system where you can rest each 8 minuites anything over 3x a day is nearly unlimitied..
i've wiped out a doom knight commander and all his body guard with that gaze while i was level 10...

ok.. i'll post the info needed to change forms server side a.s.a.p

that will let the world owners have completly custom shifter forms on each of their own worlds...
Last edited by Serpentax on Tue Mar 16, 2004 5:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Serpentax
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Post by Serpentax »

Ok here goes..
step by step shifter editing

1) not needed but REALLY recomended.. get the improved wildshape scritp of nwvault, it fixes lots of bugs like tower shield merging and jumping from one form to another..

2) open up the tool set and make any creature hides and weapons you need for your new forms.. (or find the hides of standard creatures if your replacing)

3) open up the polymorph.2da and edit the lines after wyrmling as this is the first shifter form.. its a simple 2da file that explains what each colloum needs.. just pop in the correct values and tag's for your new hides/claw/ etc...

Notes:

any spels you grant will be AT WIll as i still haven't got the hang of adding the artifical limit to them..

but now you can ditch the drow and maybe make them turn into orc warlords.. or whatever suits your world...

:)
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Post by choraldances »

Serpentax wrote:Ok here goes..
step by step shifter editing

1) not needed but REALLY recomended.. get the improved wildshape scritp of nwvault, it fixes lots of bugs like tower shield merging and jumping from one form to another..

2) open up the tool set and make any creature hides and weapons you need for your new forms.. (or find the hides of standard creatures if your replacing)

3) open up the polymorph.2da and edit the lines after wyrmling as this is the first shifter form.. its a simple 2da file that explains what each colloum needs.. just pop in the correct values and tag's for your new hides/claw/ etc...

Notes:

any spels you grant will be AT WIll as i still haven't got the hang of adding the artifical limit to them..

but now you can ditch the drow and maybe make them turn into orc warlords.. or whatever suits your world...

:)
Don't these changes have to happen to ALL of the Copap worlds or else something weird happens? Forgive my ignorance in developmental areas. I'm merely a DM. :D
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Post by Red Golem »

choraldances wrote: Don't these changes have to happen to ALL of the Copap worlds or else something weird happens? Forgive my ignorance in developmental areas. I'm merely a DM. :D
No, polymorph.2da changes are controlled entirely on the server side, and irrelevant on the client side. Thus not every world needs the same polymorph.2da, and when your world does change its polymorph.2da, you don't need a hakpack update - you can simply drop the polymorph.2da in your server's override directory (none needed on client) and restart the server and the polymorph changes will take place for the client side.
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Serpentax
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Post by Serpentax »

indeed RG is right..

this way each CoPaP world could have its own shifter forms.. and shifter pc's could move from world to world having the forms the world they are on.. cool aint it


MORE COMPLEX CUSTOM FORMS..

if you wish truly unqiue forms instead of the basic nwn creatures you need some scripting skills.. open up your module and search for the script that handels greater wildshape.."x2_s2_gwildshp" in there it deals with what level shift takes what polymorph line from the 2da..
in sections like this

case 661: nPoly = 110; break;

if you wish to spawn forms with VFX on them (ie i want swarmer form from 404) (which is a penguin with barkskin) id find the lines that handle the polymorph to the 2da line i've turned into swarmer..
then make it look like this...

case 661: {
ExecuteScript("sx_gwildshpvfx", OBJECT_SELF);
ApplyEffectToObject(DURATION_TYPE_PERMANENT, Swarmer, OBJECT_SELF);
nPoly = 110;
}
break;

the effect "swarmer" would be this..
effect Swarmer = ExtraordinaryEffect(EffectVisualEffect(VFX_DUR_PROT_BARKSKIN));

and the script "sx_gwildshpvfx" is a script that checks for and removes all extraordinary effects on the pc...(else they carry into the next form and you have barkskin drow and the like)

Ok theres some more to help..
this is how most the 404 shifter forms are done (like the fallen avenger, whos got 3 VFX wrapped on him)
More to come if needed.
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Post by Pesky »

Shifter player here:

Shifter uberness is a myth, which can be seen if you actually play one. Take

Manticore spikes:
-If you want to hit hard, the claw attacks are better.
-They cannot be used to give fire support, since they target your buddies.
- This is the only non-epic unlimited power for shifter. It is also the only proper ranged attack for non-epic shifter.

Rakshasa:
-It's a high-level epic form which requires Very high wisdom. When you get it, you're in the level range when everything is as dangerous as you are.
-The form also has an insta-death weakness.

Basilisk Gaze:
-Low petrification DC.
-Can use it 2 or 3 times a day.
-If you use the argument that resting makes it unlimited -> every wizard spell you cast is unlimited. Thus, a sorcerer can petrify things much more easily with a higher dc.
- I've used to in combat on Avlis. It's great for petrifying commoners, for example, and to scare people. However, in true combat it's not effective unless you're lucky. However, it is great to use it for fun CvC games since it does not kill your opponent, and you can cancel it by resting. Too bad a moderate level pc is only petrified if they roll in 1-5 range.

Gargoyle damage resistance:
- useful against zombie hordes and such.
- not useful against anything remotely dangerous, like Dwarf/Halfelf Mercs, any other Avlis reliables. Why: They all have +1 equivalent attacks. Use stoneskin if you want decent DR.

If you want to be uber, play a cleric or a pure druid.

Finally:

Nerfing classes for combat balance is total bull in D&D context.
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Post by Gairus »

Wow. Well argued points.

Must add though, that this thread has given me an incurable urge to start a CoPaP shifter instead of just using them in all offline mods...

How fun will it be to have almost an entirely different character on every world you visit O_O
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Post by Serpentax »

ok first off
nerfing ? have you not read anything..
its not about nerfing.. its about changing them for each world to have its own unquie forms.. removing powers that cause problems in a certain world and replacing them with equal but different ones.. gawww..

maybe its different on other CoPaP worlds.
but in 404 the idea that most creatures have +1 effective attacks is just plain wrong..

basalisk. who cares about the DC its a nightmare, you trash your opponents saves while your a druid first.. then shift and stone em up. also in 404 stone form remains on log out
this means if for some reason a shifter does pvp and stones a pc they are out of the game for quite a while...

the rakshasa.. you joking? theres nothing that can deal with one on equal levels.. they mangle fighter types with ice storm at will (at their level) and anything even attempting to bless a weapon gets a level 20+ dispel a round chucked at them.. in the HotU i walked it with ease the moment i got that form.. pop it in a party and its foul.

Pesky.. eaither your a very nice shifter player that doesnt use the tricks of each form or druid buff first.. or.. all the other Copap worlds are a lot more magic rich than 404....

in a system (ie the Copap) that bannes things like crit immunity, and sneak immunity.. its kinda nasty to have a pc that can get the lot, and clock a nice 20+ hide at level 10 due to all forms having no armor (even if armor is merged) (lob in a level of monk and your Ac makes most forms unhittable, and all the unarmed ones gain flurry of blows.. a monk speed dire tigre with druid buffs is a damn nasty thing

anyway thats just my thoughts.. feel free to leave shifters defult on your worlds.. just watch out for pc's taking a level of monk casting bull strength and using gargoyle form to mow every non magic weilding monster into dust...
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Post by Malathyre »

I don't play a shifter (yet) and never have in either the HotU OC or in any CoPaP world. To me, though, it sounds like we are talking about two different issues here. The first has to do with some low level balancing concerns and the shifter forms that are accessible. The second has to do with the high-level feats that are available to both shifters and druids. Concerning some of the low level forms, are all of the concerns based off of builds that include one or more monk levels? If so, there are some other "questionable" builds out there that don't seem to exist on the CoPaP worlds I have been to (such as the infamous Pal1/sorc19 build; most people would decry this build as cheesy immediately, and it just doesn't happen on CoPaP. For the record, I am NOT saying that there aren't instances when this build could be legitimate, I don't tend to worry about these sort of things much, actually, and I hate criticizing the way other folks have built their characters or choose to play them).

At the Epic end of things, there aren't too many classes that I know of that CANNOT tear things up at higher levels. What I have always been told by DM's is that no matter the character, there are always more powerful monsters that DM's can spawn to challenge the character. Palemasters also can become immune to critical hits, and nobody seems overly concerned about this. Additionally, I have repeatedly heard the mantra that D&D is not balanced for CvC combat, and likely never will be.

I guess my two main points are that 1) I don't think there needs to be a lot of concern about "questionable" builds on CoPaP, I just haven't seen them. 2) The Epic Feats and Epic Characters are too few right now for me to become overly worried about who can do what at what level, and they probably aren't going to be balanced for any type of CvC interaction anyway.
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Post by Titanium Dragon »

You don't even have to be epic though... that's the issue methinks.

Gargoyle form makes you immune to anything without magic weapons... on Abyss 404, that's pretty much everything. On Avlis, that's anything that's not a pretty hard NPC. You could paste most anything on Avlis with gargoyle form, as very few creatures can penetrate 15/+1.

And at epic levels, the things have +8 equipment. How many +8 items have you seen in CoPaP worlds?

Serpentex knows what he's talking about.
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Post by Pesky »

As a 16th level shifter on Avlis (and probably the first ever there, you know who I'm playing TD), I can tell you that most things that give me xp worth getting pierce a 15/+1 resist. Gargoyle form's really not worth using, since it does d4 damage, and I never use it in combat anymore. And no form gets +8 equipment. I think +6 is the max, and it requires a level 25 or 27 (not sure) character. Hell, who am I kidding. Everyone's an expert on shifter these days.

Still waiting for the nerf on Bigby's hands and shadowdancing....
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Post by Malathyre »

Nerf, don't nerf, I don't care, I'm still going to play a shifter, and I never said that Serpentax doesn't know what he is talking about, I was just posting a differing viewpoint. Right now, since I have started playing a shifter since my last post here, they are so buggy (at least on Avlis, anyway, can't speak for other CoPaP worlds, but might be the same considering the same haks are largely used for those sorts of things) that I don't know that it even warrants discussing them until the bugs are all worked out.
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Post by Serpentax »

your right, they are buggy as heck..

dont know about the other copap worlds but 404 will be running my version of the improved shifter script (balances merging, and sorts out the bugs with tower shields and the like)

Pesky, your failing to see that the issues im on about are not on the world you play.. fine if avlis works well with defult shifters GREAT..

but dont tell my a gargoyle on 404 is unblanced when you've not even played one there.. *laughs*

the info here was given to allow world dev teams and staff to decide themselves.. and FOR THE LAST TIME ITS NOT A NERF...
ITS A REMAKE
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Post by tindertwiggy »

Hey guys just a note.

Serpentax and Red are free to mod the shifter on Abyss however they see fit. It is their server, their domain. Keep that in mind. Instead of quipping over decisions others are right to make, let's just give Serpentax a thanks for the heads up.
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Post by Pesky »

Yeah, I know the 404 shifter is a remake, I read the thread. Actually, it's a pretty impressive remake by the looks of it. Guess I was sniffing a small undercurrent of nerf-gas in the air or something. Also, I was under the impression that this forum is meant for discussion about all kinds of things that affect the different worlds.

So to end on a positive note, keep up the good work on those shifters, Serpentax.
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Post by Malathyre »

tindertwiggy wrote:Hey guys just a note.

Serpentax and Red are free to mod the shifter on Abyss however they see fit. It is their server, their domain. Keep that in mind. Instead of quipping over decisions others are right to make, let's just give Serpentax a thanks for the heads up.
I was specifically trying to avoid comments like this in my posts, if any came across that way, I am sorry, that's not how it was intended. This was posted in a public forum so I assumed feedback was wanted, so I posted things from one CoPaP player's perspective.
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Serpentax
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Post by Serpentax »

no no, feedbacks all cool..

i feel i've said all i need to, and if the shifters as they are work fine on the other copap worlds.. good for them..

on 404 they dont, hence the change (not nerf)
but it wont matter as pc's that portal in will fall under the new shifter forms in 404, and when/if they get out they turn back to however the server they go to is..

All i wanted to do, was highlight the problem 404 had with shifters, and give out the info needed to change them about if other worlds also wanted to.
that all done :)

so...
Topic (from my point) over (as i got lots of stuff to do)
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Post by Eleazar »

I play with Serpentax on Abyss404 and yes he is insane. I never saw a shifter do so well. One of the huge reasons for this is that 404 is a lower magic world than Avlis. I agree with Sepentax in modifying him some. It sounds to me like he doesn't want to nerf them at all. Heck why would he its the char he plays. He just wants to add creatures from the 404 world to his shifting ability. These will replace the ones that are not fit for the 404 world because of their ablities. Equally strong ones will be introduced they just won't have a large of an advantage in the 404 world
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Post by Serpentax »

Eleazar wrote:I play with Serpentax on Abyss404 and yes he is insane. I never saw a shifter do so well. One of the huge reasons for this is that 404 is a lower magic world than Avlis. I agree with Sepentax in modifying him some. It sounds to me like he doesn't want to nerf them at all. Heck why would he its the char he plays. He just wants to add creatures from the 404 world to his shifting ability. These will replace the ones that are not fit for the 404 world because of their ablities. Equally strong ones will be introduced they just won't have a large of an advantage in the 404 world
while true and valid points, one thing confuses me..

im a full time DM, i don't have any active PC's at the moment..
Weird :P
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