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Continuation - 'CoPaP' Avlis and everyone else?
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Calorie
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 Continuation - 'CoPaP' Avlis and everyone else?

Hmm, the forums seemed to have eaten my username here because my first registration attempt failed. I am "Calories" from the avlis forum.

Continuation of-- http://www.avlis.org/viewtopic.php?t=27214

Foremost, the original topic was not intended to be taken as a rant, but as a collection of recompiled views and counter arguments I've read on these forums. It was supposed to be open to conversation and discussion, not a flame war. I do believe I originally posted this in the general discussion area as I made note to do so. I suppose it was moved since it is a touch subject and the admins believed things may get ugly

1.) Avlis superiority complex: I do firmy believe that from a technical standpoint Avlis is a better world. However, the "superiority" stressed but never stated in my post was in regards to a player superiority feeling. The feeling that gets rubbed off onto me as I read comments from avlis players in regards to other worlds is, unpleasent at times.

2.) You can bitch moan and complain until the end of time, but you gotta ask yourself, why are you bitching when you should be playing the god damn fucking game!?
The above statement was adressed to exactly the same subject matter that the original author intended. It was not meant to be taken out of that form. I also believe that the "look in the mirror" comment was directed towards me because good sir "Quiz001" thought I was bitching. The discussion I posted was far from a rant, or a bitch, but a desire for a cordial and social discussion between fellow community members.

3.) I'm not intending to "troll" your boards. This was supposed to open a decent conversation, but apparently that may not be possible. Manual, you have made an assumption upon my actions and reason for posting prematurely. Your choice of words, condescending attitude, and general unkindness was unnecessary. I do appologize for posting CoPaP business in avlis boards, but atleast there I knew I'd get more of a playerbase response rather than a team-base response.

Cheery-o
-Calories

PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 3:37 pm
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Orleron
Multiverse Scholar


Joined: 10 Nov 2003
Posts: 1252
Location: Avlis
Calories, I activated your account here. It should work now.


Quote:

1.) Avlis superiority complex: I do firmy believe that from a technical standpoint Avlis is a better world. However, the "superiority" stressed but never stated in my post was in regards to a player superiority feeling. The feeling that gets rubbed off onto me as I read comments from avlis players in regards to other worlds is, unpleasent at times.



The Avlis players don't really know any better yet. They were the alpha and the omega of this thing from the beginning, and they are used to that. It is going to change, because as CoPaP expands, they will not be the only ones here. But currently, they DO comprise more than 90% of the playerbase.

All that aside, you are generalizing. There are stuck-up people everywhere, but there are also humble ones. If you had a run-in with a stuck-up asshole, then hey, I feel your pain. But do not take that as a representation of Avlis. Individual players do not represent the whole server. So instead of pointing a finger at an entire playerbase, you should take it up singly with whomever made you feel unwelcome. If they continue to be a problem after that, you can either find another CoPaP home, or report it to the team if it is something that they should hear about.





Quote:

2.) ?You can bitch moan and complain until the end of time, but you gotta ask yourself, why are you bitching when you should be playing the god damn fucking game!??
The above statement was adressed to exactly the same subject matter that the original author intended. It was not meant to be taken out of that form. I also believe that the "look in the mirror" comment was directed towards me because good sir "Quiz001" thought I was bitching. The discussion I posted was far from a rant, or a bitch, but a desire for a cordial and social discussion between fellow community members.




Turn this around for one second. You have exactly one post on both this board and the Avlis boards. Neither one of them says, "Hello all. How are you? I'm glad to be here." Both of them point out rough edges and possible issues that may or may not be real. No matter what your intentions are, be they good or sinister, making a criticism (even a true one) as your first post is not the way to win friends and influence people. Know what I mean?

Had you made a couple of introductory posts in the general forums, and then gone on to make this post with a post count greater than Zero, I can assure you the response would have been different. You would have been received as a new player with a question, rather than a troll.



Quote:

3.) I'm not intending to "troll" your boards. This was supposed to open a decent conversation, but apparently that may not be possible. Manual, you have made an assumption upon my actions and reason for posting prematurely. Your choice of words, condescending attitude, and general unkindness was unnecessary. I do appologize for posting CoPaP business in avlis boards, but atleast there I knew I'd get more of a playerbase response rather than a team-base response.




As I said above, if you want to open up a decent conversation, it is definitely possible. It's not what you say. It's how you say it. Specifically, it's people's impression of how you say it, which can be badly misconstrued on the internet.

People like Manuel are fiercely loyal to Avlis and CoPaP. Manuel would not have built this entire website that you are now using if he wasn't. When coming into a place where people love it as their own, like this one, you've got to expect that kind of response from at least one person if you open up your first post with possible negativity. It does not matter whether that negativity is real or not. If the posters see it as such, they will go after it, unfortunately. 99% of the time I just leave it alone, for my own personal taste.
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Avlis: http://www.avlis.org

"My name is Orleron...a dungeonmaster...two years ago I got shot through a game client...I'm in a distant part of the internet aboard these servers of escaped mental patients...my players. I've made enemies, stupid, and annoying...now all I want to do is make CoPaP a reality, to warn Earth...Look inward(to your monitor) and share the newbies I've seen..."

PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 3:51 pm
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Daerthe
Ambassador: Ea

Joined: 21 Nov 2003
Posts: 45
Location: Ea: Legend of Valinor
From a personal standpoint, I didn't "come from Avlis". I've played on many other worlds. Some for a couple weeks, some less than an hour. I came to Avlis to check it out as I staff for another soon-to-be CoPaP world. When you are trying to mesh with a group of worlds, it's good to know what they are like.

Having said that, I enjoyed Avlis so much I decided to keep the character I created there and have become a member of the community. Do I think Avlis is perfect or the best? No. I would hesitate to say any world out there is the best because I haven't seen every world. And Avlis, despite being the most developed world in CoPaP, is still evolving too. This evolution brings in problems. And like a good player should, I point out any problems I see to staff members, in a constructive manner. I don't think ranting on any board is going to get a problem fixed faster than having a reasonable conversation with the staff about it. Keeping all this in mind, I do think Avlis is a great world. BUT, I also think the other worlds out there have plenty to offer to players as well.

My Avlis character has become involved in a plot over in Hala and has spent tons of time over there recently, more than she spends on Avlis in fact. Due to this plot, I've made some new friends, both IC and OOC. I have absolutely no complaints. The staff that I have interacted with there are awesome. Any suggestions or complaints I had were addressed immediately. I've had such a fun time exploring that world with one friend that I will go out on my own to check out things or bring other IC friends from Avlis over with me to do stuff. And some day, when I find out IC where the heck the portals are, I plan to go to the other worlds as well.

I've never held the opinion that any one world is better than another. They are just different. As such they appeal in different ways to different people. I take each world as I see it and generally have a good time no matter where in CoPaP I play.

PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 5:02 pm
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Malathyre
Planar Sage


Joined: 25 Nov 2003
Posts: 70
Location: Avlis player, Tairis'nadur DM
Let's discuss you're actual points that are fodder for discussion, first. Since you want a playerbase response, here you go. I have been to only one other CoPaP world other than Avlis, and I can tell you exactly what I saw. The world was different than Avlis, unique in its own with its own places, NPC's, PC's, monsters, and in general, it felt different. I thought that was very positive, because while Avlis is great, the idea of CoPaP is for the worlds to be different. Toss good RPers into a slightly different setting, and you know what you get? Fun. Combine that with good rpers that the world already has, and you know what you get? More fun. The thing that was the same about the world: the players I ran into were fun to rp with. Do I think Avlis is superior? Actually, I'm not sure, I wasn't there long enough to judge in the least...I have no idea about items, gold, xp, DM to player ratio, or any other stuff that people like to discuss and point out. What I do know is that the world was interesting enough that I am going to go back to it, and I want to try some of the other CoPaP worlds now, too. Frankly, I don't think I have a superiority complex because I started on Avlis, and I know lots of other folks who feel the same way I do. Please don't lump us all together as Orleron has already asked, that's just not fair. Also, I don't think there is a point to discussing which CoPaP world is "best"...that's just silly, it's always going to be a matter of personal opinion. I haven't been to enough of them to determine which one I like best, but I'm having fun on Avlis so I don't move around a whole lot. Maybe that's my loss. Could very well be. But if I'm having fun, what difference does it make which world it is on? *shrugs*

In terms of your second point, if you start swearing in a post, generally, you are going to irritate some people and get inflammatory responses. Some people take offense to such language, and it illicits emotional responses in some. If you want a serious discussion, my suggestion would be to leave out the four-letter words....this kind of gets at your 3rd point, too. Cordial and social discussions do not often take place when folks start throwing out expletives.

As to your third point, you criticize Manuel for make an assumption, but you yourself state that a discussion may not be possible in the first place...isn't that also an assumption? In my opinion, it is, and it is not a very constructive one. You want to discuss, let's discuss. Let's just do it in a more constructive fashion.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 5:12 pm
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MorphlingROR
Clueless Prime

Joined: 24 Nov 2003
Posts: 14
Location: Riga, Latvia
I think the key here is that CoPaP worlds (and on greater scope - different PWs) are different, even if it's in minor things. People tend to like different things too, so some will like one place more, and others will like more a different one. Then there will be people who like change and will travel a lot between these places. Then there will be people who think their opinion is the only correct one and will display it often, and the bigger a world gets, the more there is a chance that such people will emerge there. We also have to remember that those are only a select few and their opinion doesn't represent the majority.

While I myself have started in Avlis, it doesn't mean I think it's the best world out there. However I do think it's better than other PWs I have seen so far (and Avlis is not the first for me), but I also realize it is just my opinion and that it may be not true for someone else. I personally really look forward to checking out other CoPaP worlds and most likely spending there a lot of time. So far the problem is that my characters always seem to be too busy with things they have to do.

I think the next CoPaP world I will explore more will be Hala. People have been saying a lot of both negative and positive things about it, and I am really curious to see it with my own eyes. At least because my own experience tells me to never take someone else's opinion as granted.

PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2004 9:02 am
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xoox
Noobie

Joined: 02 Mar 2004
Posts: 1
I've been on Avlis a couple of months now and think it's great. The idea's behind COPAP are brilliant and I look forward in going to all the other world with other people from Avlis. Why? Because as already stated above, we get to RP in a totally unknown environments! For team play this is the ultimate experience IMO.

What will really make COPAP work and work really well will be the storylines for why peoples of each world need/want to go to the other worlds. Cross world plotlines is vital IMO, If we can script some good stories that get people going from one world to another then the soon the better. I can't wait.

PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 8:02 am
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Manuel the White
Groundling

Joined: 17 Nov 2003
Posts: 97
Re: Continuation - 'CoPaP' Avlis and everyone else?

Calorie wrote:
3.) I'm not intending to "troll" your boards. This was supposed to open a decent conversation, but apparently that may not be possible. Manual, you have made an assumption upon my actions and reason for posting prematurely. Your choice of words, condescending attitude, and general unkindness was unnecessary. I do appologize for posting CoPaP business in avlis boards, but atleast there I knew I'd get more of a playerbase response rather than a team-base response.


You are right. I apologize. Your post caught me off gaurd and in a bad mood. Rest assured, I do want CoPaP to succeed and, yes, dialouge is useful.

PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 2:37 pm
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Deider
Planar Sage

Joined: 25 Nov 2003
Posts: 63
Location: Avlis
It's been said above, but I want to stress it: there is no better here, just different. We're all making qualitative judgements here, based on our personal preferences. The great thing about CoPaP is that a player will have a cornucopia of worlds to choose from. If he doesn't like the world he started on, he can simply find the portal to another world and go there, without having to search as hard for a new PW.

Perhaps you were not ranting, or complaining, or even criticizing. Six of one, half a dozen of the other. But when it comes to all three I have a simple philosophy: be part of the solution. I don't know if you are a team member on a CoPaP world, a player in CoPaP, or merely an outside observer. But I do know that words only get people so far, and that productive actions are 1000% better. I could have stood on a soapbox for months and said that Avlis doesn't have enough DMs - instead, I became one.

PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 5:21 pm
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Silk
World Leader: Avlis


Joined: 21 Dec 2003
Posts: 21
Location: Avlis
One thing I always find interesting is how a small population of vocally negative people will give the impression that the entire population is of a similiar nature.

I'll tell you straight that the vast majority of our players are not elitest, and they simply enjoy playing Avlis daily. They spend their time playing the game and roleplaying in a positive way.

It's the bad (negative) apples that you end up remembering because they leave a stronger and negative emotional imprint.

I think this phenomenon is very interesting, and hopefully you guys can be aware of it.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 1:27 pm
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Draxlly
Ambassador: Ea

Joined: 19 Nov 2003
Posts: 51
Location: E
I agree 110%

You point is well made Silk.

The silent majority is by far the largest group any were you go in society. We tend to take things as the come and find ways to deal with each situation as it arises. The out spoken ones at time can seem to give voice to our point of view, but the truth be told they are mostly just blowing smoke and are just stating their point of view.

Mostly, we are the players you can meet in game. We are the ones that will be developing our characters in some way. Some of us love to RP and engage in any activity that comes our way. I personally have met many players that love the crafting system and devote their time to becoming the best IC crafter they can be.

The plain truth is that Avlis is a great PW and worth the investment in time it demands. Now that CoPaP is starting to gain member worlds it can only become a more diverse place to spend our time in game.

I will look forward to meeting you in game.

Draxlly aka Jerney Fenner
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 4:57 pm
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Calories
Noobie

Joined: 04 Mar 2004
Posts: 1
These replies are wonderful. I'll be sure to check out the world deeper now that I have a broader spectrum of true player opinions. Thank you for the discussion. = )

PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2004 6:18 pm
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