Arcane Archer and Dwarf Defender

Development for CoPaP
Drysh
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Arcane Archer and Dwarf Defender

Post by Drysh » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:27 am

Some races are not recognized by the arcane archer and dwarf defender classes as valid racial requirement. To fix this, we need to know what races should qualify for these classes. Here is a list of races accepted and races that could be accepted.

I'm not even sure if it is easy to fix it, but the first step is figuring out what should be the correct behavior. Note that some races may not be in use. (The numbers are the index of that race in racialtypes.2da.)


Arcane Archer
--accepts--
Elf (1)
Half-Elf (4)
Drangonary (52)
Ghos-Elf (74)
--doesn't accept--
Sun Elf (63)
Wood Elf (65)
Wild Elf (72)
Half Drow (67)
Drow (60)

Dwarf Defender
--accepts
Dwarf (0)
--doesn't accept--
Gold Dwarf (64)
Duergar (71)

If you are a team member for any CoPaP world, please comment here telling us if we should accept these races or not as valid requirements for Arcane Archer and Dwarf Defender.
Cheers.
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Brayon
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Post by Brayon » Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:46 pm

It also accepts Avarial for Elf, but it doesn't accept Moon Elfs. Moons would need to be added as well.

Drysh
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Post by Drysh » Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:32 pm

I did some research...

Avariel, Sereg and Moon Elf can take Arcane Archer because they are implemented in the right way. Including more elven races in that 2da isn't the right way to fix it.

Elven subraces are implemented in two distinct and very different ways in CoPaP: some are set as a new race (Sun Elf, Ghost Elf); and some use the elf race, but have modifiers set by autobic (Moon Elf, Sereg Elf, Avariel). I haven't tested drangonary, drow and half-drow, but I suspect they are the first case (different race).

The first method has some problems. Because they aren't recognized by the engine as elves, we have to set everything individually to recognize them. For instance, they can't take arcane archer class, can't use items restricted to elves only and aren't affected by ranger's Favored Enemy:Elf. For the engine they are a different race that has no relation to elf.

The second method is to set the race as elf, but to apply the peculiarities of the sub-race using autobic. That means, for instance, removing 2 point from dex and adding 2 to int for the Sun Elf (editing the bic to change a normal elf in a sun elf). This will make the engine recognize sun elf as an elf, without any problems. The only limitation with this method is that we cannot change the favorite class of a sub-race this way (elf has wizard as his favorite class).

I think the best way is to use the 2nd method where we can (all subraces that share the same favored class) and only use different race for things that really need them (subraces that don't have the same favored class) or when this behaviors is desirable (if you don't want a subrace to take Arcane Archer, use elven items, etc).

Since my personal mission here is to make things consistent on all worlds, I would like to reach an agreement with the other worlds as how these sub-races should work.
Cheers.
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Drysh
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Post by Drysh » Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:55 pm

This is what I think we should do. In this table when I say "set race to x", I mean, set the race to that, change the subrace field so the race name shows what it should and use autobic to apply the necessary changes (adjusting stats, adding or removing feats, etc).

Code: Select all

Elf        - as it is now (base race)
Half-Elf   - as it is now (base race)
Drangonary - set race to elf       <-- Avlis, this is your call!
Ghost Elf  - set race to elf
Sun Elf    - set race to elf
Wood Elf   - add to list (base race)
Wild Elf   - add to list (base race)
Half Drow  - set race to half-elf  <-- Hala, this is your call!
Drow       - set race to elf       <-- Hala, this is your call!
Sereg      - as it is now (race: elf)
Avariel    - as it is now (race: elf)
Moon Elf   - as it is now (race: elf)

Gold Dwarf - set race to dwarf
Duergar    - set race to dwarf
Another option is to set wood and wild elf race to half-elf. That will allow them them to take any class as favored class (as half elves do) instead of being limited to what they should. But, I don't think this is a major problem (they will be different than PnP, but with similar power).
Last edited by Drysh on Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cheers.
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Drysh
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Post by Drysh » Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:24 pm

To prevent having to rebuild chars or players complaining their chars aren't what they are used too, it's a good idea to implement BOTH solutions. That is:

1. Add the races to the list. This will allow them to take AA or DD. But won't solve the problems of elven/dwarven items, etc.

2. Change autobic so new chars are set the way I posted. This will make new chars full elves.

For old chars, the players should have the option of keeping them the way they are (not being able to use elven/dwarven items), or rerolling them with a similar name and keeping items. This option is specially important if we decide to make wood elves and wild elves use the half-elf race, because old chars may have a problem with some class combinations.
Cheers.
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terror2001
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Post by terror2001 » Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:41 pm

Ghost Elf is not exclusive to Avlis so this should be considered by all teams.

Also missing from the list are:
Shield Dwarf
Stone Dwarf
Terror2001

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Post by Nob » Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:35 pm

Autobic's Enforce Legal Character will break if you set the base race to one thing, then apply the racial modifications to another.

Also, given that Ghost Elves are an Avlis creation, how are they not Avlis exclusive?

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Post by terror2001 » Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:21 pm

Terror2001

Aeveras wrote:Yeah, my favourite DM is [spoiler] and [FOIG]!

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Post by Nob » Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:53 pm

Those aren't the same race as Avlissian ghost elves in the copap hak. The ones in our subrace system are very specifically an Avlis subrace.

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Post by Drysh » Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:19 pm

To make it clear, what I said is: some subraces are implemented the wrong way. They aren't implemented as subraces, but as races. This causes some systems to not recognize the correct race.

@Nob: Are you saying that if I implement gold elf the way seregs are implemented, the system will break? Sereg has its race set to elf, but receives an adjustment to stats. This makes sereg work for every system without having to adjust each system individually. Can't I do the same for gold elf and the others? Can't it be fixed by each world?

@All: I don't care who created what. We are here to fix bugs, not to pick fights.
Ghost elves are implemented as a new race when they are actually an elven subrace. There is no need to make them a different race for the engine, and it only makes things harder for coders. Does Avlis want to fix that? Does Arkaz? If both teams agree, excelent; if you don't then we will discuss how to solve that.
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Tremayne7
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Post by Tremayne7 » Sun Oct 14, 2012 10:26 am

Ok if I'm reading this thread correctly, it seems as if no one has any issues with correcting the dwarven races to accept the Dwarven Defender PrC. Am I correct? So those can be fixed and no issues.

Secondly, it seems as if we are at impasse when it comes to the elves. I would leave the drow alone even though under PnP D&D they are elves of a sort, but the way NWN has coded them I would leave them as is.

Secondly to address the Avlis team, we are trying to fix an issue so that everything works consistently across all of CoPap and were looking for your input into this "bug" and your assistance in helping us correct it.

I am resurrecting this thread as there have been several players who have asked about this issue.

Thank you.

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Post by TripleAught » Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:31 pm

I have no issue with Drangonari being implemented as Elves.

However, I was just checking our Wiki, and it looks like they can already get Arcane Archer. (http://wiki.avlis.org/Drangonari)
The Favored Class should be Wizard anyway, so that's not a factor.
And, for using Racial-specific items, I'm not sure if it's worth the work for a sub-race that doesn't get used all that often for items that aren't that common anyway.
I'm all for getting things fixed but also putting our effort where it's most useful.

For Ghost Elves, if you were going to implement them as a sub-race, you'd just need to make sure that any differences in the sub-races across worlds was accounted for. If Ghost Elves mechanically are the same, then that's not an issue for me either.
http://wiki.avlis.org/Elf,_Ghost

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Post by Brayon » Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:43 pm

TripleAught wrote:I have no issue with Drangonari being implemented as Elves.

However, I was just checking our Wiki, and it looks like they can already get Arcane Archer. (http://wiki.avlis.org/Drangonari)
The Favored Class should be Wizard anyway, so that's not a factor.
And, for using Racial-specific items, I'm not sure if it's worth the work for a sub-race that doesn't get used all that often for items that aren't that common anyway.
I'm all for getting things fixed but also putting our effort where it's most useful.

For Ghost Elves, if you were going to implement them as a sub-race, you'd just need to make sure that any differences in the sub-races across worlds was accounted for. If Ghost Elves mechanically are the same, then that's not an issue for me either.
http://wiki.avlis.org/Elf,_Ghost
Both the CoPaP version of Ghost Elves and the D&D version are the same mechanically in everything I can find. Just the Avlis history is is the difference between the two. Seeing that Orl used a lot of standard D&D stuff for Avlis, such as Spelljammer and Planescape, I don't see why he wouldn't use the standard ghost elves as well.

Tremayne7
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Post by Tremayne7 » Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:17 pm

Dryish has offered to fix the "bugs" and wanted direction so he could begin doing such.

Arkaz is happy to code the fixes and share with the rest of CoPap once it's been completed. :D

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