Discussion: Removing gold drops (Copy from Avlis Boards)

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Krator

Discussion: Removing gold drops (Copy from Avlis Boards)

Post by Krator »

me on avlis boards wrote:Because I was about to post something like this in this thread already but I want to have a normal discussion (No ranting), I posted it here.

Idea: Removing all gold drops from creatures. Simple thing, just no gold on creatures. Nothing. Only specific creatures should drop things, and 'bosses' (one in an area, never more, whichever level the PC is) should have an interesting item (Level 1 boss: masterwok weapon. Level 20 boss: +1 weapon for example). Not too interesting to avoid camping :) . Along with this increase the gold reward for quests (Quests can be done one time, as kombinat suggested in the player idea box) to something like 50-100 gold per level.

Idea 2: A trigger with a move silently check near the entrance of every filler house (houses PCs cannot enter legally). If you fail against 20(It's there job to stand and listen carefully so take 20 is ok :) )+normal guards listen mod a guard spawns (Heard you breaking in) and says "You shouldn't be here fella. Now leave!" and teleport to in front of the house and lose 5k gold (or whatever the fine for breaking in houses is). This will make breaking in easier for rogues to do (who are the " thief" class, and should be able to. Want to rob houses? Take skill points in MS. Makes sense, no?) and more difficult for other characters.

If possible, do this CoPaP wide to avoid off-world fortunes

I know #2 is much more difficult to do, but it is also the thing more people will agree with I think. Well, flame away.

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Post by Starslayer_D »

One counterargument: Cost of healing supplies, potions and housing. Would also basically put a stop to trading lower level items against gold, reducing trade to those who have something to trade for.
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Post by Arkonswrath »

I refer back to our original ideas of making gold sinks instead.
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Post by Themicles »

I have to agree with both responses.

Unless you're a crafter, or have a crafting buddy who sells to you cheap... you're a bit tight on money when it comes to adventuring and heal supplies.

My main has been around longer than most of the millionaires in existence, and he barely has 5k last I played. It started dropping rapidly when heal prices went up. Sure, gold drops went up too, but for some reason, they didn't go up for me. I got a gold drop once every 8 or so creatures. Know how much healing is involved in that if you're not a fighter with a high AC?

I'd rather see more gold sinks, than cutting people off. The comment is going to be made eventually, but I'll head it off. There are haves, and have nots. In this case, the haves aren't just a tiny group. It just seems like half the population is rich, and the other half barely get by unless they want to craft for hours.

That's just my two cents from the point of view I get when I'm playing. I just don't think cutting gold drops overall is a good idea. I mean, maybe slow down the higher end a little or something, but I don't know if that's really the right solution

-Themicles
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Post by Moredo »

What about maxing out the gold drop to 100 gold. You'd still make gold but you wouldn't be able to be careless with it.
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Post by Arkonswrath »

The problem with lowering gold drops is that it is going to strongly affect some classes and not affect others hardly at all.

Point in case, A cleric has really not much need of buying healing gear as they are natural healers and casters, whereas a rogue or fighter is going to need to stock up on scrolls, healing kits/potions, and things like that.

Also you will still be stuck with the current situation we have now. The rich will continue to get richer, while the poor will continue to get poorer.
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Post by Khaelindra »

Gold drops down to 100 max seems very reasonable. I now sometimes gets rops over a 1000, and the generic gold drop is around 350. Given that i ALSO have an increased chance of dropping loot (given i take on stronger monstrs for the same effort), that means i make lots and lots more monet. A simple area with say 5 spawns of 6 creatures (very conservative) of CR 10 (quite effortless for an epic character) gives 5x6x0.2=6 drops is around 1000-1200 gold. And that's not dealing with a real creature area of 10-20 spawnpoints of more serious creatures. Even a fighter chugging a BullStrength, Endurance and Barkskin before and using a purchased bandage or two afterwards would come out with a healthy profit, and have the effects still on.

It's been said before...upping both the drop chance AND the gold per drop gives exponential effects. Making a few minute respawn rate makes for farming areas. The combination is deadly for a balanced economy. Topping the golddrops to 100 gold would go a long way towards discouraging the farming for gold AND would decrease the actual amount of gold in the world. This is especially so for chests in houses.
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Post by Starslayer_D »

The main problem I see we try to prevent extreme goldfarming. This unfortunately alse hampers average players with average chars, who are not build towards maximal survivability.

Those people will have a hard time surviving with greatly reduced gold drops.

If eg my lvl 14 low-item barbarian needs to chuck 3 potions for 800 gold, and several kits to survive an area.... how much gold needs to drop there to allow hr to slowly safe for a house?


yes, extreme AC chars and self-healers have it easier. Of my ~ 10 chars, two do well (excellent equipment (DR , AC 40+), the rest struggles (good equipment (low DR, AC 30 or less))).

There are allways several factors in the equation. !00 gold per spawn seems low... very low.
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Post by Orleron »

One thing I think we should do is have all the worlds run a quick check on their loot drop scripts and database values. All of us should re-import the latest copy of nw_o2_coninclude from the copap systems directory on the ftp site and recompile the scripts in our mods. That will get some of these outdated scripts to be erased. We could then also talk about the quantities in those scripts after we do that.
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Post by Khaelindra »

Starslayer_D wrote: If eg my lvl 14 low-item barbarian needs to chuck 3 potions for 800 gold, and several kits to survive an area.
And with whom is he then partied up? I ask because i always hear arguments coming from soloing fighters who base their expenses on a totally self-provided buffing-spree coming from potions. I really hope soloing fighters-types (which is about the ONLY instance where much potions are needed) are NOT going to held as standard. I have never been in a party with Divinia where the fighter needed to quaff more then an occasional Heal (in bad, bad places) or clarity potion. That's what caster-partymembers are for... :idea:
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why are the merchants interested in piles of +1 weapons?

Post by Apandapion »

I'm only a player, and I haven't been able to scrape up the cash for a NWN-capable graphics card, so I'm not even an active player. But I am a system designer, and as a system designer, I ask you:

"What good things come of allowing players to sell magic items to npcs?"

Eschew realism for a bit and consider what good really comes of this. All it does is mangle the gold piece value. What happens if the only source of gold is gold drops? That's a little easier to control without trying to sanitize every magic item drop on the planet.
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Post by Orleron »

The good is that it acts as a moderate sink for getting rid of excess magic items that no one wants.
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Post by Flakey »

Khaelindra wrote:
And with whom is he then partied up? I ask because i always hear arguments coming from soloing fighters who base their expenses on a totally self-provided buffing-spree coming from potions. I really hope soloing fighters-types (which is about the ONLY instance where much potions are needed) are NOT going to held as standard. I have never been in a party with Divinia where the fighter needed to quaff more then an occasional Heal (in bad, bad places) or clarity potion. That's what caster-partymembers are for... :idea:
Yes you are right, with the few like Divinia, Laffreth, Sand, Nikki and others.. are good for that, but they are vastly outnumbered by the selfish mages out there.
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Post by Starslayer_D »

Hey.. I just cited him as an excample.. ok? And I have been in pure fighter parties... :)
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Post by Khaelindra »

Orleron wrote:The good is that it acts as a moderate sink for getting rid of excess magic items that no one wants.
Tell me about it. Was strolling through a marketplace in Rockhome today, and lo and behold what i saw at the Ale Merchant (i kid you not): 6 full pages of amulets of protection +1!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Imagine not being able to sell that... 8)
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Post by Drysh »

The main problem I see with the gold drops (and item drops as well) is that they are proportional to the killer's level, not the creature's. Recently, my main char went to an area where killing 1st level characters he would get some drops that is possible to sell for more than 1k gold. Combine that with a power gamer and you may make 1,000,000 in a day. And he is only 15th level (I imagine what an epic would get).

The idea: make the drop proportional to the creature's level. There should be no difference if a 1st level char or a 40th level char kills a rat, it's still a rat.
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Post by Drysh »

Oh.. And houses to be robbed...

The content of chests is also based on the char level. And the DCs are too easy for any character to break in. There are a few things that we could do about that:

- Lock the chests, and make the inventory within be based on the lock DC. This way it will never be too easy or too hard. Those that aren't locked should have a DC of 20. (Before you start asking why I call those that are not locked DC 20, it's because the NWN engine let all classes take 20 on the open locks check always, if they have a base open lock skill of 1 or more. That means if a char spent a single point in open locks, he will always succed with a DC 21 or worst. That also means any DC for locked things below 21 should be considered 21).

- Make the doors whisper the description of the action of opening if the char doesn't make a move silent or hide check against the doors open lock DC.
Door: [whispers] [CharName broke the doors lock]
And if they bash down the door...
Door: [talks] [CharName bashed the door]
And have the guards react to those phrases. (set listening pattern)
Cheers.
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Post by Apandapion »

Drysh wrote:The main problem I see with the gold drops (and item drops as well) is that they are proportional to the killer's level, not the creature's. Recently, my main char went to an area where killing 1st level characters he would get some drops that is possible to sell for more than 1k gold. Combine that with a power gamer and you may make 1,000,000 in a day. And he is only 15th level (I imagine what an epic would get).

The idea: make the drop proportional to the creature's level. There should be no difference if a 1st level char or a 40th level char kills a rat, it's still a rat.
If that's true, it's a very good point. Much better than mine, anyway.
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Post by Jeff »

Gold drops in EA are based on Creature level. Items are based on what the DM puts on the spawn bit.
This enables us to have 2 of the same creature spawn and drop different things.

My thoughts are that if we move to a more restrictive gold drop copap wide, it should be IC. By this I mean that non gold hording creatures shouldn't drop gold: rats, badgers and what not
But....
Gold hording creatures should drop gold based on what would make since IC. A few examples would include Dragons and Nobles.

Item drops would follow the same idea...
If an orc is carrying an axe, then he should drop an axe on death...
But if the orc knows no magic, and has no means to come into magic items... he shouldn't be droping them.

Just my .02gp.
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item count

Post by Apandapion »

Jeff wrote: Item drops would follow the same idea...
If an orc is carrying an axe, then he should drop an axe on death...
But if the orc knows no magic, and has no means to come into magic items... he shouldn't be droping them.

Just my .02gp.
By writing the appropriate drop tables, you can give an orc an appropriate inventory of stuff - bedroll, weapon, armor, evil god symbol, book with most of the pages ripped out with mysterious brown stains on the cover, etc.... but is it worth inflating the item count on the server for this level of authenticity?
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Re: item count

Post by Jeff »

Apandapion wrote: By writing the appropriate drop tables, you can give an orc an appropriate inventory of stuff - bedroll, weapon, armor, evil god symbol, book with most of the pages ripped out with mysterious brown stains on the cover, etc.... but is it worth inflating the item count on the server for this level of authenticity?
I agree, no item drop should be 100% of the time. My point was that when a npc does drop somthing, it should make IC since.
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Post by emprod »

Sadly, droppable weapons are the only kind that can be disarmed from NPC's, I'm told. As of one of the recent patches. Anyone hear if Bio is changing this ridiculous 'feature'?

It's something to think about for worlds in development.
Krator

Now this is a good idea...

Post by Krator »

Drysh wrote:The idea: make the drop proportional to the creature's level. There should be no difference if a 1st level char or a 40th level char kills a rat, it's still a rat.
I really like this idea! Any chance of seeing this in Avlis/other worlds?
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Post by choraldances »

Speaking for Avlis, I know it's been brought up a few times. I'd love the idea. But finding someone to incorporate the current drop script and changing it to this kind, well... it'll be work :)
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