turning off autofail and shifters

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Malathyre
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turning off autofail and shifters

Post by Malathyre »

This topic came up in IRC today, and per the request of a CoPaP coder, I'm going to bring it up here. As you all know, with patch 1.64 comes the option to turn off autofail. Doing so is obviously attractive for many reasons, but it does mess up the shifter class for PC's quite a bit. Many shifter form's special abilities have saving throw difficulties that are quite low, and in fact only work on because autofail is in place in the first place. I'm not writing this to advocate leaving autofail in place or turning it off, I'm just writing this to make sure everyone knows about this. The numbers I am pulling are from patch 1.62, I don't know for sure how things work in patch 1.64 quite yet. anyways, here goes. In the list below, SL means shifter level:

Wyrmling form:
The breath attack damage and reflex saving throw are both based on level: (SL/3+1)dX [Refl 1/2 DC=SL/2+15]

Harpy form:
Captivating Song [Will DC=15+SL/3]

Baslisk form:
Petrify Gaze [Fort DC=12+SL/2], (SL/5+1)/day

Drider form:
Drider Spear OnHit: Poison [DC=16] 1d2 ST

Drow form:
Drow Venomblade OnHit: Poison [DC=16] 1d2 ST, changes to slow, DC=10+shifter level upon becoming epic

Lizardfolk whipmaster form:
Shocking Whip OnHit: Stun [DC=22 (26 epic)] 10% 4 rounds

Kobold commando form:
Kobold Commando Sword OnHit: Poison [DC=18 (24 epic)] 1d2 ST

Medusa Form:
Petrify Gaze [Fort DC=12+SL/2], (SL/5+1)/day

Mindflayer form:
Mind Blast, [Will DC=19] Stun 1d4 rounds

These abilities' saving throw DC's do not get an increase when the form becomes epic unless noted.
Epic forms:

Vampire shape:
Dominating Gaze [Will DC=15+SL/2+WSmod], Dominate Person, (SL/5+1)/day (in my opinion, this one is designed well by adding in the wisdom modifier).

Azer chieftain shape:
Fire Stream (SL/3)d4 +WSmod fire damage [Refl DC=15+SL/2]

Stone golem shape:
Hurl Rocks (SL/5)d6 +10 bludgeoning (+1 for purposes of DR)[Reflex DC=15+SL/2]

Iron Golem shape:
Poison Breath [Fort DC=17] 2d2 CN/death, 10 ft cone

Dragon shape:
Breath Attack [Refl DC=15+(SL+DL)/2]

The main concern of course is that most of these abilities DC's max out at a value of 27 or 30, which is very low considering that you would need to have 30 levels of shifter (and therefore be level 40 total) to obtain values of 27 or 30 for most of these abilities. Obviously, the abilities with static DC's just would stop working againts opponents of a comparable level at some point. The concern isn't class balance, that's not an issue around here. The major concern is making sure the class doesn't become unviable/unfun to play because none of the abilities are functional. Thanks for your time.
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Arkonswrath
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Post by Arkonswrath »

I can see your point, however, the same can be said for a lot of spells that are cast, and the DCs on a lot of special abilities. In my opinion, most of those should be avoidable by an epic or high level character, whereas a low level character is still going to have problems against them. The majority of NPCs do not have saves high enough to fight a high end shifters abilities anyway (I know this from using various weapons that have on hit effects with a low (14) DC) They are still quite effective against them. I'm not personally for or against turning off autofail. I would actually prefer it if autofail worked both ways on a lot of things. (IE a person does a death spell and autofails on the scroll and/or the spell, and instead it backfires and gets cast on themself, or a person goes for a dev crit, autofails, and ends up stunned for x number of rounds due to a severe miss) that kind of thing. I think overall though, if the decision was made to eliminate autofail, it wouldn't have that much of a bearing on the playability or funfactor of the Shifter class. How often do things autofail anyway? Out of every 20 times the ability is used, the odds should factor in that 1 out of those 20 times something would autofail against it. Would losing that one time really make the class unfun?
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Post by Zelle »

Arkonswrath wrote: it wouldn't have that much of a bearing on the playability or funfactor of the Shifter class. How often do things autofail anyway? Out of every 20 times the ability is used, the odds should factor in that 1 out of those 20 times something would autofail against it. Would losing that one time really make the class unfun?
Actually yeah, it does have a huge effect on the playability.

Those DCs are a bit hard to read, but basically a Petrification Gaze DC for a level 20 Shifter (20 class levels, minimum 30 character levels) is DC 22. Seeing as that's a Fort save, you'll be stoning commoners galore, but should you actually want to use it in battle . . . you're plum outta luck. At level 30 the critters you're spawning, well, most of them will have Forts a bit higher than 22. And most shifters don't go pure shifter up like that, they'd have 20 shifter levels at level 40, not at level 30. And a DC 22 at level 40? Not really something to fear.

So basically turning off autofail means that it goes from something that you can throw a party when they roll a 1 and it works . . . to "why bother" because you know that you will NEVER get lucky.

Now, all that being said, even with that, I am in favor of turning autofail off because I miss feeling safe with an uber save you put effort into.
Malathyre
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Post by Malathyre »

Arkonswrath wrote:Out of every 20 times the ability is used, the odds should factor in that 1 out of those 20 times something would autofail against it. Would losing that one time really make the class unfun?
For me it would, yes. The forms are very much fun to rp and that would not change, but I'd like for my character to be fun to rp and have something to contribute to combat as well. The special abilities of the various forms are definitely one of the things that makes the class fun to play.

The point here, however, wasn't to start a debate as to whether or not turning off autofail would be a good or bad thing. The point was to make everyone who helps/run/manage/lead a CoPaP world aware of this. Each world can do what it wants in terms of leaving autofail on or turning it off. I don't know much about spells of the various classes and which would be drastically changed by autofail. I do know that turning off autofail would have an impact on the shifter class because of the way the class is designed, and because I play a shifter and I know how frequently the abilities within the class work right now.
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Post by teleri »

The auotfail issue is a Different issue and can be discussed viewtopic.php?p=4732#4732.
Cheers,
teleri

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Post by teleri »

Mal,

Thank you for catching this.

To balance out this change it will require that the autofail remain or that the abilities are adjusted so that you have a decent chance of success as a shifter.
Cheers,
teleri

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Post by Starslayer_D »

Amonien decapitated the deglos Amber dragon with a vorpal sword, DC 26, when it rolled a 3 on it's reflex safe...

If you meet a creature wich saves are too high, chances are good you were targetting it wit efefcts where it's safe is strong.

Never use fort save based spells against fighters, or ref save based spells against rogues, or will save spells against clerics or mages. You'll be up for disapointment. For monks, switch to something other than direct spells.

Same applies to abilities, as well.

There is a reason why amonien, as a high lvl cleric, uses very few spellls on foes directly, but has memorised buffs for her party galore, and healing spells. They are more eficient for her. The foes she meets are epic, and have epic saves and hitpoints, The measely 30d6 from her blade barrier simply won't dent them. Anything really successible to her spells falls just as quick to her in melee. (mages have better attack spells, especialy ones wich disable a foe completely).
BlindBleu

Post by BlindBleu »

Was the beheading of the Deglosian Amber Dragon a recent event?

I have been told that she is vastly improved of late.

I have been on the receiving end of her charms, all I know is she kicked our hoops really bad. :D

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Post by Starslayer_D »

It was in july.

Beheading her was the only thing besides the divine favour part of my damage wich hurt her back them. Luckely, she a) failed to knock me down, and b) expended her considerable list of spells on quite a respectable list of summoned helpers.

I was urprised though at seeing the balor sword actually doing it's job. Must be about the third dragon ever I managed to kill in Avlis. And then the big one.

But I had some motivation to do it.. lets say, I fought like a ...

... cornered Amonien.
BlindBleu

Post by BlindBleu »

Well from what I have been told, Amonien will be having to play Tag with Amber, due to she is acting a Guardian?/Filter of something that Amonien may want in the near future.:D

I play Breggiae Two Strikes along with several other Wemic PC's. :lol:

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Post by Starslayer_D »

Huh? I dfenitely must have missed something.
But in that case allow me to bring my friends to play, too. :twisted:
Ed? Mow? Vanya, Xal, Jill, Arch, Ayren, care to give me a hand?

Somehow I am certain there is another way to resolve this.. :twisted:


(edit)
some hours later:

Wait, you didn't mean Amber, the fun for free wizardess=
Malathyre
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Post by Malathyre »

Starslayer_D wrote:Amonien decapitated the deglos Amber dragon with a vorpal sword, DC 26, when it rolled a 3 on it's reflex safe...

If you meet a creature wich saves are too high, chances are good you were targetting it wit efefcts where it's safe is strong.
To play a shifter, you give up druid levels in order to gain access to the forms and special abilities of those forms of a shifter. I'm not suggesting that strategy isn't necessary to make many of the abilities very useful, I am suggesting that a level 10 druid/level 10 shifter will have a hard time finding opponents of comparable level that any of the abilities possessed by the forms will work against, regardless of class or high or low saves. The original point of the post was not to say that strategy wasn't necessary when playing a shifter to maximize the utility of the abilities, the point was to say that the saving throws are so low for many of the abilities that they only work because of autofail against comparable level opponents, let alone higher level opponents.
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Post by Pesky »

What he said.

With soon almost a year of playing a shifter, I've never come across opponents of comparable level that are suscetiple to shifter attacks without the autofail. Even now, it is almost always better to just use melee attacks. With autofail removed, the class would become half pointless.

Also, removing autofail on 1 would in my opinion turn the game into a high-level idiot-fest, with invincible superheroes running around.
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Post by Sarrena »

Pesky wrote:What he said.

With soon almost a year of playing a shifter, I've never come across opponents of comparable level that are suscetiple to shifter attacks without the autofail. Even now, it is almost always better to just use melee attacks. With autofail removed, the class would become half pointless.

Also, removing autofail on 1 would in my opinion turn the game into a high-level idiot-fest, with invincible superheroes running around.
You do understand that the autofail is a new option and the game is as you ammusingly stated has been a "high-level idiot-fest" up to this point so far. It may provide that slim chance of danger for high level charecters in reguards to lesser abilities, but it will not make or break the fun of it all.

In reguards to the shifter class being broken because some of your powers wont have full affect, since when is DnD about that nasty "balance" word? Personaly I find shifters the only PrC class I have an even remote liking of because of the RP. If their powers are insufficent, I'd suggest talking to Serp and seeking his advice in rebuilding the class completely. He did a fine job with it on Abyss.
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Post by Arkonswrath »

Going back to an earlier discussion I had with another person... a 10/10 druid shifter is still going to kick butt.. even with out the special abilities.. there are many forms that if played correctly will have exceptionally successful times dealing with certain situations. Not to mention that as a PrC, shifters delve into powers from almost every other PrC. Kobolds get HIPS, You get a drow form that if coupled with the buffs of a druid makes that a monster in the melee realm, you get awesome saves in some forms against certain things, etc. If the loss of being able to use a weak ability against an equal leveled PC or NPC breaks the fun factor of the person playing the class.. IMHO you chose the wrong PrC to play. Autofail is not a PnP rule to my knowledge. The only time autofail has ever been factered into a normal DnD session is in regards to Melee combat. Not saves. A lot of people cry that we need to go more towards the way PnP things are... but when we start to.. we get complaints (this is in reference to many things, not just this thread). Guess it goes back to the old, you can't please everyone addage.
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Post by Pesky »

My main beef with the autofail removal is the fact that it makes high characters even more uber. We don't need more uberness.
If the loss of being able to use a weak ability against an equal leveled PC or NPC breaks the fun factor of the person playing the class
I dislike people putting words to my mouth.
Last edited by Pesky on Tue Nov 09, 2004 5:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Khaelindra »

Starslayer_D wrote:
Wait, you didn't mean Amber, the fun for free wizardess=
*Jumps up and down, waving*

Yoeoehoeoeoe!!!!!!
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Post by Khaelindra »

Starslayer_D wrote: But in that case allow me to bring my friends to play, too. :twisted:
Ed? Mow? Vanya, Xal, Jill, Arch, Ayren, care to give me a hand?
Aw...and leave home without a qualified healer, Star? You know the credo: when the monsters are mean, bring a White-and-Green! :lol:
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Post by Khaelindra »

Pesky wrote:My main beef with the autofail removal is the fact that it makes high characters even more uber. We don't need more uberness.
If the loss of being able to use a weak ability against an equal leveled PC or NPC breaks the fun factor of the person playing the class
I dislike people putting words to my mouth.
Only uber against puny opponents. Which they should be as they're EPIC. But that is not an issue for this thread, but for the autofail on or off thread in general, as that's not a shifter-issue.


Back to shifters being nerved in a significant way: i'm sorry, but as lvl 32 character, if i look at those saves that are in Mal's shifter-ability list, i can't see much of an issue with autofailure. For instance, my FORT-save is optimal for my level, apart from not having magical bonuses: 12 (good saves from druid for all 20 levels)+6 (12 epic levels worth of saves)+ 2 (CON-bonus)=20. That lvl 30 shifter has a host of forms to chose from that would make autofail on or off irrelevant, as any save of 22 or higher makes a 1 a fail whether it's on or off. A lvl 30 mage with CON-14 and a +4 cloak of resistance for instance would have a FORT-save of 6+5+2+4=17. How is autofail crippling the effectiveness of the shifter-specials then? Sure, the lvl 30 dwarven defender with epic Great Fortitude, defensive stance and loaded with protective gear is going to be immune to the stun or the sleep or the petrification or whatever a shifter throws at him special-attack-wise, but is that enough to be significant weakening of the shifter over-all?

And, when push comes to shove and we have the hobby-shifter that only has like 6 shifterlevels at level 30 and has DC's of 15 or 16 on most abilities, well then they have a significant number of levels in another class from which they derive their 'power'. Divinia has 6 mage-levels of her 32 levels, and she doesn't seriously expect whatever she can produce in the arcane magic department to seriously impact any oponent that's remotely threatening to her. Having autofail on the save against her charm person in effect so she might have a 5% chance to neutralise the epic bandit leader is not really an issue.

The 10/10 shifter/druid should not have that issue i think; DC 17 petrify, DC 18 poison, DC 22 stun...most creatures having saves of 10-15...i don't see an autofail being an issue against 90% of the encountered opponents.
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Post by Zelle »

No "pure shifter" build is going to be 10 druid/20 shifter at level 30 though. That 22 SC stone is hypothetical. That character has gimped itself beyond all recognition to FOCUS on those DCs and you would STILL have to roll a 1 to fail to them. Yes, a Shifter with 6 levels at 30 would be a "hobby shifter", but someone with 10-15 would not be. Shifter, as opposed to almost every other class, cannot combine alot of class abilities at once. You need druid as your base class, but once you shift, you can't use anything on that druid spells list, you're pretty much on your own with what you can do as a shifter.

For those unaware, Bioware introduced Shifter and Autofail TOGETHER. They made those DCs so low because they EXPECT you to use the autofail with them. They have made statments about them being so low because at higher levels you have unlimited uses of them so hey, you can just keep trying until they fail.

Again, I still think autofail should be OFF, but people saying it will not hurt shifter special abilities really do not know what they are talking about there.

And shifter players saying that they are utterly gimped without autofail need to start playing to weaknesses instead :P
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Post by Khaelindra »

Zelle wrote:You need druid as your base class, but once you shift, you can't use anything on that druid spells list, you're pretty much on your own with what you can do as a shifter.
P
As druid/elemental shifter, i do realise what the limitations of shifting into a form are. And believe me, the druid is loaded with spells that you can cast ahead of time that will significantly boost your plain melee combat.

As for the DC and saves: correct me if i'm wrong, but as i read Mal's list, as a 15/15 druid/shifter (your logical example), you can choose from the following saves you force on your target:
* a DC 22 FORT-save against stun as Lizardman,
* a DC 22 REFL-save against Fire as Azer,
* a DC 22 WILL-save against Domination as Vampire,
* a DC 22 REFL-save against crushing damage as Giant

among other things.

Am i correct?

Well, let me tell you that, except for maybe high-level monks with good saving-gear and high stats on DEX, CON -AND- WIS, smart changing and using of abilities can always find a hole. Sure you can find an attack where autofail matters. However, there's also much where it doesn't.

And really, if with autofail on you stand against a Deglosian Fire Giant, will you really stand in front of him trying to stun him, hoping he will autofail in time? I didn't think so too. The area attacks are good against lesser things, and the specials are good against thngs that don't have a huge save in that particular area. Given you can force 22DC checks on every saving throw depending on your form and attack, you can always find a hole if it's there. And if it isn't there, the monster is generally so strong that you wouldn't go for the 5%-chances anyway.

To be clear: i'm not saying they are not hurt; i'm saying they're not hurt significantly. I'm also not saying those DC's are good or bad in general; i'm only saying the impact of autofail on/off is not significant on the overall peformance of the shapeshifting character, shifter or not. And yes i can even compare it with my elemental forms as they have Drown and Knock-over (DC=14), which would be just as impacted.

Or am i missing something here?
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Post by Pesky »

Good examples, except you're not counting one thing. The example is fine if you're forcing these saves on an unresisting target. Often, you need to choose your shape according to what defences the shape in question has, rather than the offence. But yes, epic shifter is a lot more viable than a non-epic shifter. As you notice, all the formsyou listed except the lizard are epic shapes. Which I will be getting on say, level 27 or 28. And the shapes in question are better off just beating the opposition to death anyway, than using their abilities.
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Post by Khaelindra »

Pesky wrote:And the shapes in question are better off just beating the opposition to death anyway, than using their abilities.
Exactly!
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Post by Malathyre »

Sarrena wrote:[In reguards to the shifter class being broken because some of your powers wont have full affect, since when is DnD about that nasty "balance" word? Personaly I find shifters the only PrC class I have an even remote liking of because of the RP. If their powers are insufficent, I'd suggest talking to Serp and seeking his advice in rebuilding the class completely. He did a fine job with it on Abyss.
It's not about balance, it's about the way in which a class was designed to function. I don't want to make an argument for or against autofail, nor do I have a lot of data to back up anything that I'm saying. All I am saying is these abilities were designed with autofail in mind. Turn autofail off, leave autofail on, these abilities were designed with autofail in mind. Personally, from a power standpoint, yes, I think the shifter was horribly designed and the abilities a given shape gets are either way too powerful to be fair or way too weak to be useful, with or without autofail on. Additionally, the melee capabilities of any shape I've seen are rarely worth using. Turning autofail off will not change the rp value of the shifter class which I have come to enjoy a great deal. It will change the combat viability of the class. Whether it's ever worth using a power in game that really only has about a 5% chance of success anyway is a good point, anyway.
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