Are +3 weapons and glowsticks prestigious anymore?

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emprod
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Are +3 weapons and glowsticks prestigious anymore?

Post by emprod »

I think anyone that has spent some time in low-magic mods where we have HoTU spells will agree that what we considered high-end weapons in copap are now kind of bunk, with the likes of greater magic weapon, darkfire, flameweapon, keen edge in the hands of casters.

I've seen people favoring their low-end weapons more, maybe things with on-hit effects, extra crits, a few points of elemental damage, and either enchanting or having them enchanted by casters, and leaving their old +3 'prestigious' things home.

With clerics around, the same can be said for armour and shields.

These enchantments last really long, and can't be dispelled in any way.

I recently watched a +2 weapon with 1-6 elemental damage get auctioned for well over a million gold, and someone made the obvious point that any PC with 6 levels of a caster class can walk around with the same or better (adding keen even) more or less permanently, enchanting any rusty old piece of metal.

Is it time to rethink what is considered a 'prestigious' weapon reward for a long quest, or what's sold at merchants, craftable, etc? Or is it already being talked about? *crosses fingers*

Will +5 gear become the equivalent that +3 was? Will we see +6 and +7?

Not trying to start a flamefest, but I'm curious what the future holds for this.

--Emp
Orleron
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Post by Orleron »

The future is more likely to hold a nerfing of those enchantment spells in reality.
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Quiz001
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Post by Quiz001 »

Oh bugger, there goes another character

*prepares his self-buffing fighter mage with poxy gear for the bin*
emprod
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Post by emprod »

Quiz001 wrote:Oh bugger, there goes another character

*prepares his self-buffing fighter mage with poxy gear for the bin*
I assume this is sarcasm right? Hard to tell in written word sometimes.
kombinat
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Post by kombinat »

If enchanted weapons were considered bunk, why would someone pay over a million gold for it?
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Post by markschouten »

The only glowy weapon that isn't prestigious anymore imho is a fire glowy weapon. Any other glowy weapon is still sort of prestigious to me.
Quiz001
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Post by Quiz001 »

emprod wrote:
I assume this is sarcasm right? Hard to tell in written word sometimes.
Half and half. I do have a self-buffing fighter/mage with crap gear, but there's no way I'm retiring him - spent too much time on him for that. I did retire a pure archer (~ lvl 10) because he had too hard a time of it, and his char make-up made it pretty much impossible to accept gear - even from DMs. Obviously It'll be tougher for my F/M if buffs are nerfed, but other char styles have been nerfed too, so I'll roll with it. As long as he's still playable, that's all that really matters in the end.
eNTrOpY
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Post by eNTrOpY »

Quiz: If i had to guess, your character would not become unplayable due to nerfing of the GMW spell and the like. Most likely what Orleron has in mind is instead of getting a +5 weapon from GMW at level 15, you'd get a +3 weapon at level 15.
Quiz001
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Post by Quiz001 »

Well, if that's the case, I'll be ok with it... I agree +5 at the level it's currently available is too powerful - I'd say your guesstimate would be playable - it doesn't overshadow the 'special' items some chars have (and are presumably hard-earned). It means it's no use to a F/M (you'd have to be around level 25 - 30 to get your mage lvl high enough to make it worthwhile) but there are other spells still available to him, and it means a pure mage of level 20 could still do some serious party buffing.
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Post by Sindol »

Quiz001 wrote: I did retire a pure archer (~ lvl 10) because he had too hard a time of it, and his char make-up made it pretty much impossible to accept gear - even from DMs.
*remembers how bloody hard it was to make that archer accept a well deserved reward*

Glad you're still around, I still miss Sion though. :|
So much fun,
yet so little time to enjoy it.
- Sindol
Quiz001
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Post by Quiz001 »

Lol Sindol, I remember that.... You might miss Sion, but I bloody well don't! He was a great learning tool for me as my first main on Avlis though... 'No no, give it to the poor and needy!' or 'I know, I'll set up business going into dangerous areas to get rare ingredients and take on groups of Hill giants solo with my bow of crapness and +0 arrows'. Heh, learnt all the quickest 'naked mile' routes in a hurry though :P
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Post by Khaelindra »

3.5 didn't see the GMW/GMF spells nerved to +1/4levels for nothing. :!:

Personally i'd go for +1/5 levels, as that means that only an epic caster can enchant weapons to penetrate all defences.

Add to this the removal of the Fire Blade spells and monsters of a normal CR might actually deserve the "C" in CR again...

Or give every NPC caster a flame blade spell too of course... :twisted:

*sigh* remembers the time when SoU came out...a possibility for an archer to actually gain a damage bonus and slowly get up to par with the fighters showed itself. Here was a single pure specialist that, at level 17-20 actually gained the ability to penetrate the stoneskin *gasp* :shock:
Then HotU came and all melee-fighters being or near to a caster got 5 points of to hit and 20 points of damage added per hit for hours on end. DR means crap anymore and AA's can be thrown in the waste-basket of obsoleteness.

*waits hopefully for the correction of this OC-miscreant making it into PW's*
Quiz001
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Post by Quiz001 »

AA's can be thrown in the waste-basket of obsoleteness.
I know, I know, but I can't help myself wanting to do one still.... old habits etc.. I'm still trying to leave that road open for my F/M River, but each time a feat comes up at level-time, I find myself taking 'great cleave' or 'two-weapon fighting' instead of a bow-related one.
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Post by Titanium Dragon »

You could also, of course, decrease the duration to like a round/level (or 2 rounds/level), which means you get that for a few fights.
Quiz001
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Post by Quiz001 »

Now there's an idea - the spell would still actually get used occasionally if that was implemented
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Post by keikobad »

Quiz: If i had to guess, your character would not become unplayable due to nerfing of the GMW spell and the like. Most likely what Orleron has in mind is instead of getting a +5 weapon from GMW at level 15, you'd get a +3 weapon at level 15.
That seems a bit out of line with the availabilty of +3 weapons in game. By level 15 many characters have them. Level 20s can pull them out of chests.

The spell should provide a higher enhancement than party members are likely to have, else it loses its usefulness.
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Post by Daerthe »

My Avlis character is level 15 and has more than 1 +3 weapon of different damage types. However the weapon she uses most often is a +1 with elemental dmg. If the GMW spell was nerfed to make it a +3 rather than a +5, I wouldn't cry over it. though it would make it totally useless to have that +3 longsword. To my mind, GMW makes items with a straight + to enhancement useless. I can get the same thing or better from GMW, which I can cast. So I go more for the elemental dmg as it adds to the total dmg I can do with the weapon.

One point I want to make in all of these discussions about nerfing enhancements....without them low level characters can't even hope to travel with higher levels. And with the quantity of epic level folks around, there is rarely anything that goes on where you don't have a mixed-level group that includes lowbies and epics. Not to mention there's plenty of nasties around you can't hit without those enhanced weapons. Even with +4 weapon GMW enhanced weapon I have run into things I couldn't touch.

If we're going to be nerfing this kind of thing, perhaps there are some monsters that also need to be nerfed. There is nothing more frustrating than being in the middle of an event and not being able to do anything but stay out of the way of the epics.
emprod
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Post by emprod »

My Avlis character is level 15 and has more than 1 +3 weapon of different damage types. However the weapon she uses most often is a +1 with elemental dmg. If the GMW spell was nerfed to make it a +3 rather than a +5, I wouldn't cry over it. though it would make it totally useless to have that +3 longsword. To my mind, GMW makes items with a straight + to enhancement useless. I can get the same thing or better from GMW, which I can cast. So I go more for the elemental dmg as it adds to the total dmg I can do with the weapon.
Totally agree. This is my reasoning behind the thread..devaluement of what were considered your standard quest loot and rewards (+2, +3 weapons), effect on economy...etc.

Other than changing the spell or changing the reward guideline, the other thing that comes to mind would be making +2 and +3 weapons (and armor) base items for the next generation of craftables. Since people are mostly leaving them at home/in bags now anyhow.
One point I want to make in all of these discussions about nerfing enhancements....without them low level characters can't even hope to travel with higher levels.
Travel? Or jump into a fray?

Right now if my melee PC (lvl 16) has a level 15 + cleric to work with, I'm basically given a +5 shield, +5 armour, +5 weapons, with 12-14 fire damage, +5 deflection AC, and hell yeah I'm gonna jump into a fray and tear things up, especially my with newfound 44AC.

Fun? Yes. Fair? I'm not sure. I'd hate to see regular monsters spawns tailored to ASSUME that people are going to be running around with a +5 everything.
And with the quantity of epic level folks around, there is rarely anything that goes on where you don't have a mixed-level group that includes lowbies and epics.
True.
Not to mention there's plenty of nasties around you can't hit without those enhanced weapons. Even with +4 weapon GMW enhanced weapon I have run into things I couldn't touch.


Couldn't touch them, or they reduced your damage? 20/+5 can be cracked, sometimes you gotta turn on that power attack mode, but it can be cracked. Get up to 30/- (like a demilich) and you better hope someone around has improved power attack and weapon specialization.
If we're going to be nerfing this kind of thing, perhaps there are some monsters that also need to be nerfed. There is nothing more frustrating than being in the middle of an event and not being able to do anything but stay out of the way of the epics.
Heal the epics when they get thwomped? :wink:
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Post by Daerthe »

emprod wrote:
One point I want to make in all of these discussions about nerfing enhancements....without them low level characters can't even hope to travel with higher levels.
Travel? Or jump into a fray?

Right now if my melee PC (lvl 16) has a level 15 + cleric to work with, I'm basically given a +5 shield, +5 armour, +5 weapons, with 12-14 fire damage, +5 deflection AC, and hell yeah I'm gonna jump into a fray and tear things up, especially my with newfound 44AC.

Fun? Yes. Fair? I'm not sure. I'd hate to see regular monsters spawns tailored to ASSUME that people are going to be running around with a +5 everything.
How far can you realistically travel without getting involved in a fray? If you walk along a road and a DM doesn't see you, maybe. Otherwise, forget it. You're going to be in a fight. If there are only a couple of you, there is no way you aren't going to be fighting. And while you might travel with a decent level cleric regularly, not everyone does. However, that level 5 character travelling with the level 15 cleric or mage is going to live more than 3 rounds with these buffs...without them? Forget it. They're going to spend the whole time bleeding or running around trying to avoid the monsters.
emprod wrote:
Not to mention there's plenty of nasties around you can't hit without those enhanced weapons. Even with +4 GMW enhanced weapon I have run into things I couldn't touch.


Couldn't touch them, or they reduced your damage? 20/+5 can be cracked, sometimes you gotta turn on that power attack mode, but it can be cracked. Get up to 30/- (like a demilich) and you better hope someone around has improved power attack and weapon specialization.
Couldn't touch them. I can crit in the high 30's/low 40's without power attack on, I couldn't touch these creatures. I stayed in the fight the whole time, not a single swing did any damage. And this was a half hour of solid battles.
emprod wrote:
If we're going to be nerfing this kind of thing, perhaps there are some monsters that also need to be nerfed. There is nothing more frustrating than being in the middle of an event and not being able to do anything but stay out of the way of the epics.
Heal the epics when they get thwomped? :wink:

How long does that remain fun? What is the point of being involved in an event or travelling with a friend that makes your PC useless? And there are creatures that epics are challenged by. If the epics can't fight them, how can anyone else hope to have any chance at all? And if there are going to be creatures around that require +4 and +5 weapons to hit them, then only epic PCs or PCs buffed by an epic caster will be able to fight them. Where is the fun factor there? There is nothing that will ruin my fun quicker than having enemies thrown at me that I don't have a prayer of harming. I don't have to kill the most, do the most damage or strike the killing blow on the head bad guy to have a good time. I do want to walk away feeling like I participated in some way. Running around healing all the epics with my melee based character is not going to make me feel that way. Were I playing a cleric I might feel differently, but I'm not and I don't.

Most of my point here is that balance issues are arising with the addition of epic level PCs. From my personal perspective, I am seeing alot of cases where things are being geared to the highest level PCs in a group. The level based spawn system creates some of these issues, but I have also seen it a fair number of times in DMed events. I am not saying all DMs or all events, but I do see it and its a trend I don't like. Creating an event for a group of players that includes a few epics as well PCs ranging from lvl 2 to lvl 20 isn't easy. Its a challenge for the DMs even more so than it is for the players. I see the item level issue as related to the epic level issue. That I may have more to say about when I am not late for a final exam. :P
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Post by subspace1011 »

Nerfing of the spell is only going to piss people off. The deal is, combat in a DM situation with epic characters around isn't fun, because only epics can harm them (perfect example are the tougher Sereg), and everyone stands around twiddling their thumbs. Heck, even Cor can't really touch a Sereg, and he's lvl 15 (13 wiz/2 rogue).

Why else has the Elysia server become so populated with newer characters? It's much more geared toward a large expanse of the player base, from epics to novices.

Mikona doesn't get alot of action because it hasn't really expanded, and everytime you join the server you're bombarded with enemies that you don't stand a chance fighting.

The only resolution to this is to either a.) constantly spawn a LOT of stuff to keep all players busy. Or, b.) spawn lower level stuff, but then spawn a seemingly easy creature with a really good constitution to keep the higher lvl busy. When I was DM on Hala, I did that alot, because I recall at one time I was a novice, and I hated dying alot just because I was "inexperienced".

There are work arounds to Epic vs. Novice fun discussion.

As for the glowstick prestige discussion... anyone who has been around for a long time has prestige in some way, be that a custom item from the DM or what have you. It's also obvious those whose names constantly pop up in discussion as to who has that prestige... to name a few (Damar, Peregryne, Jake Bensen, Green Raven, Melonius)

The players know you to be good, because you've been around a long time. Even newer players, learn quick.

So who cares about a glowing rod that says, "Ooh, I RP well"?
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Post by Khaelindra »

Titanium Dragon wrote:You could also, of course, decrease the duration to like a round/level (or 2 rounds/level), which means you get that for a few fights.
As with all very powerfull combat-dominating spells like Mass Haste, Acid Sheath, Fire Shield and such, i think indeed making the huge damage bonus something you prepare for a fight or two a very attractive and feasible option. I always think spells should have a greater effect than their permanent counterparts, but not have the duration to be effectively permanent themselves. That way magic is a nice aid with handy long-duration boosts on a low level of impact and an important factor when brought to bare on crucial moments, but not a predominant factor constantly whenever a caster is around.

And as for lowlevels wanting to take part in the fun of whacking at adamandite golems...well some things you HAVE to leave to the epics, else what's an epic for? And the usual spawns are seldom damage resistant to the point that someone with a +1 longsword has no chance of hitting them. Unless of course you go in the LRC and try to hit elder elementals, but that's no place for lowlevels to be anyway. The idea of lowlevels having to be able to have fun along the epics everywhere is a bit odd in my eyes anyways. Some places NEED to hold that touch of awe power and fascination, that promise of "when i'm big, -I- can go with them too... :)", rather then "gosh i'm bored...can you buff me and show me the dragon at the bottom again?"
Last edited by Khaelindra on Mon Apr 26, 2004 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Titanium Dragon
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Post by Titanium Dragon »

Thing is, it makes it so melees are basically worse than clerics (and sometimes mages) at meleeing. Sure, you can claim "party up with a high level mage/cleric", but why does that person need to party with YOU?

Also, not everyone has a +3 weapon at level 9. In fact, most people don't have more than a couple pieces of +3 equipment these days. Clerics run around with three pieces of +5 equipment permanently, and mages run around with one.

The real issue is that these spells are uber. If Tiras buffs up Vence, Vence can take the first level of the LRC at 9th level. Is this a problem? It is if you don't want a 9th level fighter taking on the LRC easily. That fire weapon doubles the average damage per hit, which means I'm taking down foes in half the time, often with just one or two hits. Moreover, I can and have soloed areas I have no business being in with those buffs. I get an additional +3 to +5 to hit, and +12 to +15 to damage with a magical weapon. At times, I've gotten a +5 to hit and up to +19 bonus damage with some nonmagical weapons.

These spells make you vastly more powerful. The issue is, they really shouldn't be able to do it for hours. Right now, at 10th level, GMW lasts for fourty minutes. At 15th level, it lasts a real time hour. That basically means you just got a +5 weapon permanently for absolutely nothing. The flaming spell... that basically gives you an epic weapon.

Saying it evens up parties is kinda silly too. If I'm a level 2-3 character, I shouldn't be fighting Sereg; I should be running like heck or using a missle weapon or something from an easily defensible position.

Cheapening DM rewards isn't good; that is why you can't buy +2/+3 weapons in stores, let alone +5s, which are only given out at the end of epic-length plots, essentially.

Shortening the duration is probably a superior solution than weakening the spell; with a shorter duration, it is still useful, but you only cast it before important combats instead of making the whole adventure pretty much a breeze or (in the case of DMs) having to throw impossible-rated monsters at the party for them to actually cause any damage at all. Meanwhile, you can use it for that uberdeadly boss monster fight at the end, where you need to use up everything you've got to fight it, and put everything you've got into winning.
Khaelindra
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Post by Khaelindra »

TD said it all.

Let the rusty dagger remain the rusty dagger, and not be the near-permanent epic weapon after a mere two lowlevel spells.
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Post by Vanor »

Daerthe wrote:How far can you realistically travel without getting involved in a fray? If you walk along a road and a DM doesn't see you, maybe. Otherwise, forget it.
A 5th or so lvl PC should be able to travel from nearly any civlized part of Avlis to any other civlized part, without much wory. Please note that i say civlized. So saying that you can't go from Elysia to the northeast corner of T'Nanshi, without a fight, doesn't mater.
However the weapon she uses most often is a +1 with elemental dmg. If the GMW spell was nerfed to make it a +3 rather than a +5, I wouldn't cry over it. though it would make it totally useless to have that +3 longsword. To my mind, GMW makes items with a straight + to enhancement useless.
Which is the major problem with those spells. They make normal + X weapons pointless, even though they are supposed to be the bulk of the rewards DM's give out on Avlis.

Anything that makes a +3 weapon pointless to cary, is something that needs to be changed.

However your point about some creatures is true. On Avlis at least, the number of NPC's with DR that +4 or higher or /15 and higher should be extreamly rare. A +5/5 DR isn't all that bad, it's only when it gets to the +5/20 DR that there is a major problem. This lvl of DR should be only seen on epic lvl "Boss monsters"
If the epics can't fight them, how can anyone else hope to have any chance at all?
If there is a NPC that a group of 25th + lvl PC's can't beat, then the non-epic lvl PC's should have no chance at all. They're called Epic Level PC's for a reason. They have reached a level above and beyond what is normal. They are faster, stronger and better then other PC's. If there's something out there they have trouble with, then that thing should eat 18th lvl PC's as a light snack.

I guess the other way to say it, is your comment is completely corect, and how it should be.

I tend to agree completely with Khaelindra and TD.
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Post by Sarmanos »

Personally I never looked more favorably at someone with an uber glowstick than anyone else. Just never liked it much since in some ways it may promote a form of elitism with the wording.
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