Race Alteration: Kobolds and Goblins

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Drysh
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Race Alteration: Kobolds and Goblins

Post by Drysh » Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:03 am

I originaly posted it in "Players Idea" on Avlis boards. But I think this is a better place to discuss it.

Kobold and Goblin feats
Aren't some missing?

Kobold
Alertness (already have)
Darkvision
Small Stature
Skill Affinity (Listen)
Skill Affinity (Search)
Skill Affinity (Spot)
Skill Affinity (Move Silently)
Skill Focus (Hide)

Goblin
Alertness (already have)
Darkvision
Small Stature
Skill Affinity (Listen)
Skill Affinity (Spot)
Skill Affinity (Move Silently)
Skill Focus (Move Silently)
Skill Focus (Hide)

From the D20 main page, monsters, they should have:
Kobolds: Darkvision, Hide +6, Listen +2, Move Silently +2, Search +2, Spot +2, Alertness
Goblin: Darkvision, Hide +5, Listen +2, Move Silently +5, Spot +2, Alertness

What do you think? Should this be altered? Is it possible to alter this now?
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Zebranky
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Re: Race Alteration: Kobolds and Goblins

Post by Zebranky » Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:38 pm

Drysh wrote:What do you think? Should this be altered? Is it possible to alter this now?
With the added skill bonuses, some ECL levels would have to be added. Additionally, since kobold and goblin PCs already exist, there would no doubt be complaints of "Well, I want the NEW version of the race!" The changes seem unbalanced, not in line with the rest of the custom races, and unnecessary. So on "Should this be altered?", I'm going with "no".

Drysh
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Post by Drysh » Fri Dec 08, 2006 9:28 am

I don't agree that giving these to kobolds and goblins would make them have an ECL. Look at the statistics for kobolds and goblins. They are the weakest of all CoPaP races:
-1 STR
-1 CON
Bonus Feat: Alertness

I'm comparing, for instance, with the elf:
+2 DEX
-2 CON
Bonus Feat:
Hardiness vs. Enchantment
Immunity to Sleep
Keen Senses
Low-Light Vision
Skill Affinity (Listen)
Skill Affinity (Search)
Skill Affinity (Spot)
Weapon Proficience (Elf)

Maybe not all of them (this is what I found on the monster description for them). But at least, trying to put what is essential only, these bonus feats:
Alertness (already have)
Darkvision
Small Stature
Skill Focus (Hide)

Or even less, the Small Stature is one that I think that should be added. After all, no one can say they aren't small.
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Post by VIpAcT » Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:12 pm

I think some places diverge from the sourcebooks and have their own custom races (like goblins and kobolds) with that settings/worlds stats for that creature.

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Post by Zebranky » Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:30 pm

The feat Small Stature does not exist in NWN, to my knowledge. I'm not sure what you're thinking of, but if you just mean Small size, they should already have that.

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Post by Arkonswrath » Sun Dec 10, 2006 1:36 am

Small Stature is technically not a feat but I believe it is listed in the feats of a halfling type character. It refers to the +1 to AC and AB that small creatures get against big creatures. This is automatically put in place.

Final Shinryuu
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Post by Final Shinryuu » Sun Dec 10, 2006 11:34 am

Yup. Creature size is automatically dictated by the model size which the PC logs in with. Proper penalties and bonuses are automatically in effect. The "Small Stature" feat is purely cosmetic.

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Post by Pathos Street » Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:26 am

The "skill affinity" as you call it comes from one level of the humanoid racial class or of an actual character class. Racial hit dice grant skill points just like class levels.

According to the SRD, Kobold characters should have the following adjustments:

* –4 Strength, +2 Dexterity, –2 Constitution.
* Small size: +1 bonus to Armor Class, +1 bonus on attack rolls, +4 bonus on Hide checks, –4 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits 3/4 those of Medium characters.
* A kobold’s base land speed is 30 feet.
* Darkvision out to 60 feet.
* Racial Skills: A kobold character has a +2 racial bonus on Craft (trapmaking), Profession (miner), and Search checks.
* Racial Feats: A kobold character gains feats according to its character class.
* +1 natural armor bonus.
* Special Qualities (see above): Light sensitivity.
* Automatic Languages: Draconic. Bonus Languages: Common, Undercommon.
* Favored Class: Sorcerer.
* Level adjustment +0.

According to the SRD, goblin characters should have the following adjustments

* –2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, –2 Charisma.
* Small size: +1 bonus to Armor Class, +1 bonus on attack rolls, +4 bonus on Hide checks, –4 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits 3/4 those of Medium characters.
* A goblin’s base land speed is 30 feet.
* Darkvision out to 60 feet.
* +4 racial bonus on Move Silently and Ride checks.
* Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Orc.
* Favored Class: Rogue.
* Level adjustment +0

That is to say, if you are going to argue for accurate racial feats, these are the ones to argue for. I don't think it's going to happen, though, unless someone makes a new kobold and/or goblin racial type for their PW.

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Post by Drysh » Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:59 am

@Final Shrinryuu: Are you sure? I thought the engine checked the model size for some things, and the feat for others. Well, maybe I read it wrong. :) Do you mean.. If I have a changeling he will automaticaly receive: +1 TH, +1 AC, -4 discipline, -4 knockdown DC when using a small size? And the oposite when I'm using a large size model? Wow.. Changelings are much better than I thought.. I always thought the change form hability was purely cosmetic. *runs to play his changeling*. :P

Small Stature and Skill Afinity aren't actualy feats, but the game engine list them in the feat list. They are the way the engine uses to set some things for some races. I was trying to translate what I read into the engine language, and trying to do it without changing much. Changing hability's adjustments would be huge. Can't some/any of these feats be added to the racial hide? This way all chars will have them.
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Post by Final Shinryuu » Wed Dec 13, 2006 12:36 pm

Drysh wrote:@Final Shrinryuu: Are you sure? I thought the engine checked the model size for some things, and the feat for others. Well, maybe I read it wrong. :) Do you mean.. If I have a changeling he will automaticaly receive: +1 TH, +1 AC, -4 discipline, -4 knockdown DC when using a small size? And the oposite when I'm using a large size model? Wow.. Changelings are much better than I thought.. I always thought the change form hability was purely cosmetic. *runs to play his changeling*. :P
Yes at changeling sizes. Take note, however, the engine picks your size catagory when you log in. So if you want to be in a small form, you need to shift to one, then relog. Also note that the +1 to hit and AC does not show on your character sheet, but it will be counted in the combat logs. You'll also find the proper weapon size restrictions in place.

For example, if you log in in a small form, you can't use a large weapon. If you log in with a large form (wemic, for example), you can use a large weapon 1 handed.

Final Shinryuu
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Post by Final Shinryuu » Wed Dec 13, 2006 12:39 pm

Drysh wrote:Small Stature and Skill Afinity aren't actualy feats, but the game engine list them in the feat list. They are the way the engine uses to set some things for some races. I was trying to translate what I read into the engine language, and trying to do it without changing much. Changing hability's adjustments would be huge. Can't some/any of these feats be added to the racial hide? This way all chars will have them.
No. Putting more feats on character hides does nothing but cause excess problems. There's already enough problems with characters spontainiously losing hides due to flukes or script problems, and needing excess work to reattach them.

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