Psionics and new powers

Discuss any general matters related to CoPaP here!
GuiltySpark
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Psionics and new powers

Post by GuiltySpark » Mon Sep 26, 2005 12:03 am

You knew this was comming :)

As a disclaimer I did a search and looked to see if this had already been asked. If it has, i'll eat mud.

And please, this is a serious question so no "Blarg i hate psions"

Some people hate psions. Think their over powered etc..
Some people don't care.
Other people love psions to death. (complain that duration times are messed up but they were just fixed, cheers)

In any case, psions is a big prat of copap (th worlds that use them) and quite a few characters either have people with psionic powers or pure psions. Naturally anyone who has a psion (me) is interested in seeing the class progress (The same with everyone else out there who has a favorite class)

Anyways.
New psionic powers.
Crisis of life, megakenisis, phsychic blade, and all their friends.

I asked about it on my home world (that sounds kinda funny) and they said something like this has to get passed by copap. testng needs to be done and someone has to review this stuff. Thats cool.

Can we have the new psion powers examined and deemed wether or not they be implimented into copap? There are many many people interested in these new powers i promise. (hopefully they lend their support here)

i think with just a little bit of work, we can pull this of with little difficulty.

I know a common mentality is that something like this may be kow on a priority or 'to do list' and thats understandable, but, if you only consintrate on building buildings, no one is going to take care of the pot holes or street signs. Sometimes the little things make the biggest difference.

For your consideration and approval.

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Post by Druid523 » Mon Sep 26, 2005 12:22 am

I play a psion on Hala, and would just like to lend my vocal support to this. I would love to see the new powers implemented. I hope some testing could be done to see if these powers may eventually be added to CoPaP. I hope other psions or psionics-users will post replies here (even one-line posts) showing their approval or disapproval. Even non-psions...show your support! The more people who ask for it...just maybe it'll happen.

-Sceluscio Potementia (Hala Psion)
When things are at their worst...smile.

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Post by Tolkien Guru » Mon Sep 26, 2005 12:24 am

I'd love to play a psion, and if I ever stop having barrels of fun with m current main a psion is absolutely going to be my next character. Love the stuff I have seen so far.

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Post by Loki70 » Mon Sep 26, 2005 12:35 am

My main on Avlis is a monk psion, and I would love the new powers to be implemented (psychic blade would be the only weapon he would ever use). I keep getting the "psionics are overpowered" and personally don't see it. Most buffs are turn, not hour, no militant bonuses, and most of them don't stack (armor skin went to natural). All of the powers have a chance of failure, none of them are all powerful or that uber, and the new skills are very expensive. What I would like to see is the psychic attacks and defense be added as a class feature (more like PnP)

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Post by Sindol » Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:30 am

Kinarr is the Psionics Grand Master on Avlis, and also for CoPaP. Anything to do with the psionicist class for CoPaP goes through him, so if you want to offer some help, he's the tree to bark up. :)

Disclaimer: I have no idea if he's working on implementing these new powers at all, or if they're out of the picture completely, nor do I know if he's in need of any more subcontractors to help him with this work at the moment. There's only so many people that can be put on any project afterall.
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yet so little time to enjoy it.
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Post by Loki70 » Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:51 am

Sindol wrote:Kinarr is the Psionics Grand Master on Avlis, and also for CoPaP. Anything to do with the psionicist class for CoPaP goes through him, so if you want to offer some help, he's the tree to bark up. :)

Disclaimer: I have no idea if he's working on implementing these new powers at all, or if they're out of the picture completely, nor do I know if he's in need of any more subcontractors to help him with this work at the moment. There's only so many people that can be put on any project afterall.
He is working on implimenting them, he can use subcontractors, and he is Da Man of Psi

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Post by KaiRal » Mon Sep 26, 2005 2:33 am

Yes. Impliment more.

Variety is the spice of life. And he who controls the spice, controls the universe.

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Post by Loki70 » Mon Sep 26, 2005 2:55 am

KaiRal wrote:Yes. Impliment more.

Variety is the spice of life. And he who controls the spice, controls the universe.
*coughs* Lay off the Dune *coughs*

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Post by slave.of.emotions » Mon Sep 26, 2005 4:54 am

I have nothing against psions excapt for one... monk/psion builds and one of the new powers that i saw on vault is transform as the lvl 9 mage/druid spell and i sure dont want to see monk/psions with that power.

see -> monk/druids and now a psionic ancient red dragon monk ? ... duh


And yes i know, monk is the logical class for psions bla bla... excapt that for having afew monk levels they gain superior abilities. And if both classes are that close to eachother then why take monk at all ? Fighter is a completly neutral class...
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Post by Loki70 » Mon Sep 26, 2005 5:03 am

What does Transform do? Is it like Shapechange, where you take the form for hours, or is it a couple of rounds, and you have to be a 15th level psion, and it costs 60+ PSP and you can't use any other psionics at the same time? Or is it more like Tenser's where you get the fighter AB for the duration?

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Post by slave.of.emotions » Mon Sep 26, 2005 5:05 am

Loki70 wrote:What does Transform do? Is it like Shapechange, where you take the form for hours, or is it a couple of rounds, and you have to be a 15th level psion, and it costs 60+ PSP and you can't use any other psionics at the same time? Or is it more like Tenser's where you get the fighter AB for the duration?
Its like the druid spell with duration of turn per level and just like shapechange being transformed does not block your powers.
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Post by Loki70 » Mon Sep 26, 2005 5:28 am

slave.of.emotions wrote:
Loki70 wrote:What does Transform do? Is it like Shapechange, where you take the form for hours, or is it a couple of rounds, and you have to be a 15th level psion, and it costs 60+ PSP and you can't use any other psionics at the same time? Or is it more like Tenser's where you get the fighter AB for the duration?
Its like the druid spell with duration of turn per level and just like shapechange being transformed does not block your powers.
But the level thing is correct, right? So at the very least, you have to be 16th level to use it. Which in my case would be 31st level (16/15). I don't know the mechanics of either spell, but I have seen a few clerics, druids, and mages turn into dragons at relatively low levels (17th), and no one seems to mind. For the most part, they can't hit anything, cause they can't get by the DR (for monks, that means 10th for +1, 13th for +2, and 16th for +3). Sorry, but at 31st level, you should be fairly badassed. And I would rather just stay a monk (natural damage and equipment would most likely dwarf what the dragon can do)

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Post by Apandapion » Mon Sep 26, 2005 6:46 am

Loki70 wrote:
slave.of.emotions wrote:
Loki70 wrote:What does Transform do? Is it like Shapechange, where you take the form for hours, or is it a couple of rounds, and you have to be a 15th level psion, and it costs 60+ PSP and you can't use any other psionics at the same time? Or is it more like Tenser's where you get the fighter AB for the duration?
Its like the druid spell with duration of turn per level and just like shapechange being transformed does not block your powers.
But the level thing is correct, right? So at the very least, you have to be 16th level to use it. Which in my case would be 31st level (16/15). I don't know the mechanics of either spell, but I have seen a few clerics, druids, and mages turn into dragons at relatively low levels (17th), and no one seems to mind. For the most part, they can't hit anything, cause they can't get by the DR (for monks, that means 10th for +1, 13th for +2, and 16th for +3). Sorry, but at 31st level, you should be fairly badassed. And I would rather just stay a monk (natural damage and equipment would most likely dwarf what the dragon can do)
That's because spellcasters *lose thier spellcasting powers* when they shift. (At least, until druids get wild spell.) What do psions lose? The consensus seems to be "not anything"... a 16th level psion can make more than enough psps with residue in 16 minutes to pay for the shift - thus, there's no reason for them to ever leave, say, death slaad form.
Cell adjustment so you can heal in dragon form without potions? Yes, please.

And I think they can hit things. Most of the forms can bypass DR equal to thier own - so a death slaad, with +2/10 DR, has the equivellant of +2 claws. A lot of folks on CoPaP get by without a +3 weapon for a loooong time, so I don't really see them as losing out here.

I don't see why you see the level thing as a problem. Maybe it is a restriction for existing characters - but i'd expect to see a lot of 8 str/8 dex/8 con/16 wisdom/16 int psions slogging through the low levels to be 16 psion/2 monk. 18th level is no great feat. 16th level, at least in my experience, is when levelling really begins to slow down.

Of course, one can hardly call a regenerating 40+ AC psionic slaad ninja slow in any regards. I would encourage anyone to create one of these and take it through a stroll through HotU before taking a side in this debate. I already know how powerful a monk/druid in death slaad form is - a monk/psion, with access to the full array of his powers in the "death engine" slaad form, is enough to make me a little weak in the knees. And while I'd love to play one, the thought of about a half dozen slaads hanging out at elf gate is enough to make me cautious.

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Post by slave.of.emotions » Mon Sep 26, 2005 6:48 am

shapechange is THE spell for druids. anciend red dragon is powerful and even more a slaad for a monk with weaponfinesse, ALL monk/druids i saw so far have been using this spell to turn into a slaad.
a psion or druid with one level of monk gains a bonus atack each +3 base ab so they end with 5 atacks per round, 6 with furry of blows, then the wisdom adds to the the extremly high dex and natural ab of a slaad AND they have the monster atack damage + something druids did not have at all when shapechanged, magic, they could only buff themself before shapechanging.

finnesse monk/druid turned into a slaad is the absolute top of AB and AC together with air elemental form.
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Post by Loki70 » Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:42 am

Sorry to burst the uber mega slaad bubble here, but the hard code for NWN caps buffs at +12 of base. Unless this power is seriously tweaked and changes the base stats in the 2da file, they would still cap at +12 to their attributes. Anyone that takes 2 levels of monk is going to play a gimped version of the character for most of their levels. Just to get a single ability at higher levels? They pass up the immunities, SR, AC bonuses, increased damage, etc?

If the powers that be really see this as a bad thing, they can choose not to add it. The way my character is now, I don't think I would ever take the ability, and if I did, it wouldn't help him much. I would like to take one on, though. It would be interesting to see how one does against a straight monk of the same level.

The thread is to add the other powers, and of course all are up for review, and Kinarr is working on them while we argue. Pretty much up to him and the world leaders to come to some conclusion

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Post by Drakuul » Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:46 am

Well done for the thread hijack - this is why these powers are being tested before implementation - as you would have read if you'd read from the top of the page.

I am all in favour of the new powers, having played a psion from the moment they were added.

I have all faith that if these are added then they will be playtested and balanced. All hail Kinarr!
*Your superior intelligence can not defeat my puny weapons*

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Post by slave.of.emotions » Mon Sep 26, 2005 8:24 am

Drakuul wrote:Well done for the thread hijack - this is why these powers are being tested before implementation - as you would have read if you'd read from the top of the page.

I am all in favour of the new powers, having played a psion from the moment they were added.

I have all faith that if these are added then they will be playtested and balanced. All hail Kinarr!
Yes ofcourse, the point is that not evryone plays a monk/psion. Powers like that would need for monks a extra balancing, there would not be a problem if worlds would have a policy to keep monk and psion level the same as it should be with a major bug like that, even outside of NWN where this bug does not exist monks can not just multiclass as they wish.
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Post by papainhell » Mon Sep 26, 2005 8:58 am

Monks CAN multiclass as they wish, just once they multiclass they can never take monk levels again.

In NWN you CAN go back and take monk lvls, so a bug does exist.


Back the topic
Yes, add the new powers, I cant wait for my main (monk 21/ psion 4) to get the good stuff :D




Also
why are folks so worried about what other classes can do? CoPaP is so L337, it's only a matter of time before the sladds invade, sheesh :wink:

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Post by Apandapion » Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:11 am

Loki70 wrote:Sorry to burst the uber mega slaad bubble here, but the hard code for NWN caps buffs at +12 of base. Unless this power is seriously tweaked and changes the base stats in the 2da file, they would still cap at +12 to their attributes. Anyone that takes 2 levels of monk is going to play a gimped version of the character for most of their levels. Just to get a single ability at higher levels? They pass up the immunities, SR, AC bonuses, increased damage, etc?
Shapechange/polymorph/wild shape *replaces* the physical stats of the user. So if Malin (str 10) casts empowered bull's strength and gets a good roll (+7 str), he has a 17 str in elf form.

If Malin changes shape into a dire bear (str 30, I think?), then the 30 overwrites the 10, and Malin ends up with a net 37 strength. The +12 is still true, so malin can have a maximum of 42 str in bear form. But on the shift, he goes straight to 30 and up from there.

So before buffs, a psion/monk in deathslaad form is going to have death slaad physical stats and whatever his normal mental stats are. If the psion is boosting his wisdom every 4th level, then his dexterity bonus (30 in slaad form?) plus his wisdom bonus is going to be a rather frightening AC modifier. Add in an enhanced strength before the shift and an adrenaline control after the shift, and the phys stats will make your eyeballs pop out I imagine. Get a druid to cast owl's insight on you for the bonus AC and psps while you're at it...

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Post by Apandapion » Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:34 am

I suppose I should add that I think shapechange for psions would be fine if it were round per level. Go ahead and drop the psp price by 50% (or perhams even more) if you like. A round/level duration prevents the psion from spending his whole post level 16 career in a shapechanged form.

This would make it a bit more balanced with the druidic version. The druid doesn't stay in shapechanged form all the time because he can't cast spells in druidic form. The psion doesn't stay in shapechanged form all the time because the duration is too short. It's still a *great* power (16 rounds of death slaad attacks will make a great many things die), but not something that you can spend your character's life under. Like accelerate, you have to pick your moments or you end up dry on psps.

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Post by teleri » Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:14 am

Before adding new get the current ones correctly balanced.
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Post by GuiltySpark » Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:34 am

No one is every going to agree completly that something is fair and on the level guys. Some people hate Dev Crit, others hate time stop. People get worked up in a frenzie over shadow dancing.

This isn't really about what tweeking we should do
(use this instead viewtopic.php?p=9046#9046 ).

This is just about showing the world leaders and staff that hey, there are a good number of us who wanna see psions around. Not just a few die hard fanatics.

Are they going to be balanced? Nothing in NWN is completly balanced and honestly it's all about how you look at it. I'm very confident the teams will do the best job they can at balancing out any powers that need tweeking. I'm more than happy to trust them and let them handle it.

I'll fire off a PM to Mr Kinarr and see if I can get an update on where the new powers stand.

if you want to discuss balancing psions/the class and how they compare to other classes use the thread/link i posted.

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Post by slave.of.emotions » Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:43 am

i want to see new powers if... there are new feats for fighters barbarians rangers and bards, more songs for bard and spells for all spellcasters...
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Post by Loki70 » Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:59 am

slave.of.emotions wrote:i want to see new powers if... there are new feats for fighters barbarians rangers and bards, more songs for bard and spells for all spellcasters...
It is because of this that monks and psions got their own forum on Avlis. No matter what, someone finds some reason to think that the characters they don't play are overpowered. Been bouncing around for over a year now, and that is the only thing that has yet to change. Kinda sad, really

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Post by GuiltySpark » Mon Sep 26, 2005 12:18 pm

i want to see new powers if... there are new feats for fighters barbarians rangers and bards, more songs for bard and spells for all spellcasters...
*shakes head sadly*

Your not really approaching this on the same level my friend.
It's not really about bartering this power for that spell. This class for that class. Psions get this a new power so I WANT something for my druid.

I want to see the fist of raziel prestiege class. I want to see new spells and feats for my characetrs to. I really want to use the psychic blade.

Everyone wants to see new powers and feats and spells. This is about taking a portion of that, psionics, and applying it to copap.
If you want to see new spells and feats for other classes thats great, open up a thread to discuss how it can be added t copap. Don't make this a psion vs whoever thread.

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