XP on Hala

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Titanium Dragon
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XP on Hala

Post by Titanium Dragon » Sat May 22, 2004 5:40 pm

Chassagne wrote:Since I think it works well, I dont see what has to be fixed. If CoPaP tells me its wrong, when I'll think again.
This was Chassagne's response to me pointing out that the xp on Hala was some fifty percent above what is allowed under CoPaP guidelines.

Hala uses Avlis' custom xp script, so it awards the xp that Avlis does. On top of that, it has its xp slider set to 2%, so it awards double experience for kills - once for the standard xp from NWN (the slider at 2%), the other for Avlis' script.

Because Chassagne saw nothing wrong with this and won't change it unless I post here and have someone say that this is wrong...

So - I'm pretty sure this is wrong per the articles of confederation. Can someone back me up on this and tell Chassagne?

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Post by Chassagne » Sat May 22, 2004 6:49 pm

May I point out a few things :
- Tit is not part of the Hala team
- Tit has no access to the Hala mod
- the statement "50%" above Avlis is still to be shown.

As everybody knows here, I've been more than active in bringing Hala in line with what is done in the other CoPaP worlds, xp and drops wise. If something is shown to be wrong with Hala, it will be fixed very quickly.

Bytheway, I'm openned to any kind of fair test to compare xp in Hala and all the other CoPaP worlds.

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Post by Titanium Dragon » Sat May 22, 2004 7:25 pm

Chassagne wrote:May I point out a few things :
- Tit is not part of the Hala team
I was an area builder until recently. In fact, until I started bringing up this whole xp thing (on the Hala boards) I had access to the team boards.
- Tit has no access to the Hala mod
Not the current one, no.
- the statement "50%" above Avlis is still to be shown.

As everybody knows here, I've been more than active in bringing Hala in line with what is done in the other CoPaP worlds, xp and drops wise. If something is shown to be wrong with Hala, it will be fixed very quickly.

Bytheway, I'm openned to any kind of fair test to compare xp in Hala and all the other CoPaP worlds.
I have been gathering data on xp on Hala, and will soon go back to Avlis and compare. And its not 50% above Avlis, its 50% above 3% xp slider bar, which is the maximum proscribed standard xp slider seting under the Articles of Confederation.

I'm not doing this to be assinine; YOU told me to post it here Chass after discussion on the Hala boards.

Example:

Bandit Chief (CR 11)

Level 10 character:
Hala: 108 xp
Avlis: 60 xp

Chassagne
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Post by Chassagne » Sat May 22, 2004 7:39 pm

Tit, you cant conclude from one fight that the xp in Hala is 50% above what CoPaP says it has to be. Plus, the mob you're talking about is not a standard one, but a special one I made for a special encounter in Hala.

So yes, make a test : compute averages, take different chars of different levels, make them fight different mobs on both worlds... I dont know, just try to be serious in that... Conducting such a test and computing averages is not so complicated.

I'm glad to learn you were "an area builder until recently", I never heard about that... What have you built in Hala in the last few months ?

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Post by Titanium Dragon » Sat May 22, 2004 11:06 pm

I'm not concluding it from one fight; its an overall pattern. Cripes.

More examples (I need the CR for them though, the ones that aren't pallette critters):

All for a level 10 character on Hala
Goblin Trooper (CR 3?): 5
Goblin Shaman (CR ?): 12
Zombie Warrior (CR 4): 9-13
Ettercap (CR 5): 11-15
Lizard Warrior (CR 13): 195-199
Ravaging Spirit (CR 12): 133-135
Minotaur (CR 6?): 17
Formian Warrior (CR 4): 8-12
Formian Taskmaster (CR 6): 24-25

So, for comparison, a level 10 character needs to kill on Avlis:

A CR 12 Creature
A CR 13 Creature
Last edited by Titanium Dragon on Sun May 23, 2004 12:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

Titanium Dragon
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Post by Titanium Dragon » Sat May 22, 2004 11:53 pm

Okay, experience for monsters on Avlis (level 10 character):

Avlis Zombie Warrior(CR 4): 3-6
Hook Horror(CR 5): 3-6
Ettercap(CR 5): 2-5
Umber Hulk(CR 9): 7-8
Gray Render(CR 8): 10
M'chekian Feral Cat(CR ?): 1
Dire Badger(CR ): 3-5
Ogre(CR 3): 2-4
Ogre Beserker(CR 6): 7-8
Bugbear(CR 2): 1
Bugbear Hero(CR 5): 4-7
Bugbear Shaman(CR 4): 3

So, lets do a comparison:

CR | Avlis | Hala
3 | 2-4 | 5
4 | 3-6 | 9-13
5 | 2-6 | 11-15
6 | 7-8 | 17
11 | 60 | 108

Lets look at the differences:

CR | Difference
3 | 1-3
4 | 3-10
5 | 5-13
6 | 9-10
11 | 48

And now mean difference:

CR | Difference
3 | 2
4 | 7.5
5 | 9
6 | 9.5
11 | 48

Percent higher Hala is (that is, gives 100% + this percent)
CR | Percent Higher | Mean percent higher
3 | 25-150 | 67
4 | 50-333 | 144
5 | 83-650 | 225
6 | 113-143 | 127
11 | 80 | 80

Voila. I couldn't think of any easy-to-get-to CR 12 or 13 creatures on Avlis.

Thus, it looks like creatures on Hala give roughly twice as much xp as on Avlis.

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Post by Orleron » Sun May 23, 2004 12:26 am

It's very simple to determine this, especially if Hala uses the exact same xp script as Avlis.

The xp script on Avlis is controlled by a database variable in the "settings" table. The variable is called "BaseXP", and it is set to 4 on Avlis. The XP slider is 0%.

* If Hala has BaseXP set to 4 AND XP slider to 3%, AND it is using the same xp script as us, then TD is correct. Hala is going over.

* If Hala has BaseXP set to something LESS than 4, and an XP slider of 2% or something thereabouts, then it still could conceivably be within CoPaP guidelines.


Remember, the articles say you must have *equivalent* xp rates. They don't say you must have the same settings or scripts, just equivalent amounts, i.e. the data for Avlis kills and Hala kills should be close.

Disclaimer:
I don't know anything about what Hala's settings are. I am just stating facts and letting everyone know what they SHOULD be.
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Post by Titanium Dragon » Sun May 23, 2004 4:37 am

The xp slider on Hala is on 2%. The BaseXP value, according to Chass, SHOULD be the same as that on Avlis, as he said he set it up with Mistcaller to be exactly like that of Avlis. Ask Chass if it is or not. It does seem to give as much or more xp than Avlis though; it displays the xp on two lines, and it seems to give as much or more xp for monsters on the avlis xp line as Avlis does, plus the two percent. I cannot be sure though because I don't have access to the Hala database.

I don't think Chass did this intentionally; I think he was simply confused, mistaken, or mistold by someone while setting up the xp system on Hala.

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Post by Chassagne » Sun May 23, 2004 5:06 am

Sorry, but there are things said here that are just not acceptable.

I talked to Mistcaller about the Avlis XP system on Feb 12th, and copied the exact Avlis system and XP slider he gave me to Hala. Nothing more, nothing less, I never pretend Hala to have the exact same XP system as Avlis now. The Hala XP system was a terrible mess at that time, with goblins giving 20xp to lvl 20 players... Mistcaller is a fine person that helped me a lot in doing many things in Hala, his advice are always very precise and well-documented, and I'm very grateful to him for that. I wont let anyone say that he "confused" me, or "mistold" me things.

Too bad nothing has been posted about the technical aspects of XP computation here since the Avlis system has been changed. I guess it's another sad example of the lack of communication we already talked about many times.

From what I see in the script, this table "settings", that is in our DB, and that holds "4" for the value you're talking about, is not used by the XP script. The avlis_xp_sys I have is dated from Dec 14th 2003, and yes, the XP slider in Hala is set to 2, as it has always been. The Hala system workd with two line of XP : first one computed by the NWN server, second one as a bonus, computed from the XP script.

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Post by Themicles » Sun May 23, 2004 5:30 am

You were at the very least mis-told.

The XP slider on the module should be set to 0 when using the custom experience scripts, assuming you are NOT modifying the scripts.

The only reason to slide it above 0, is if, for some reason, you are using a combination of custom XP and Bio-XP.

I've been working with the Avlis code longer than any other CoPaP leader, except MAYBE Ferus. I've watched the custom XP go though several iterations now. If you go kill something on Avlis, you can verify my statement about the XP slider by noting that, in the two XP lines that show, one is ALWAYS 0.

-Themicles

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Post by Chassagne » Sun May 23, 2004 6:10 am

All right, I see this discussion is not going anywhere at the moment, so here is the script I was sent by Mistcaller (copy / paste in ICQ feb 12th). It was taken from the Mikona mod, and he told me at the same time that the XP slider was set to 2. This is from my ICQ logs.

Feel free to be constructive and to post any modification / replacement of this script. Btw the BASEXP variable is red from the module global settings int the OnLoad script.

Code: Select all

// Name     : avlis_exp_sys.nss
// Purpose  : Calculate xp for a killed creature
// Author   : Ingmar Stieger (Papillon) partly based on mythos_exp_sys
// Modified : October 6, 2003 by Pap
// Modified : October 8, 2003 by Pap (prevent div by 0 errors)
// Modified : October 17, 2003 by Orl (take ECL into account when awarding xp)
// Modified : October 27, 2003 by Pap (fixed ECL implementation)
// Modified : October 28, 2003 by Pap (award XP for creatures killed by traps)
// Modified : November 14, 2003 by Pap (tweaked xp calculation a little)
// Modified : November 15, 2003 by Pap (xp boost for parties)
// Modified : November 19, 2003 by Pap (tweaked xp calculation a little)
// Modified : December 14, 2003 by Pap (removed ecl calculation)

const int nMaximumXP = 450;  // maximum for a single creature

void main()
{
    // make sure a PC, an associate, or a trap killed the creature
    object oKiller = GetLastKiller();
    if (!GetIsPC(oKiller))
    {
        if (GetObjectType(oKiller) == OBJECT_TYPE_TRIGGER)
        {
            // killed by a trap
            object oCreator = GetTrapCreator(oKiller);
            if (GetIsObjectValid(oCreator))
                oKiller = oCreator;
        }
        else
        {
            // test for familiar / summon
            object oMaster = GetMaster(oKiller);
            if (GetIsObjectValid(oMaster))
                oKiller = oMaster;
            else
                return;
        }
    }

    int BASEXP = GetLocalInt(GetModule(), "BaseXP Value");
    int BONUSXP = d6();
    int nMonsterXP;
    int nPartyLevelSum = 1;
    int nPartyMembers = 1;
    int nHighLevel = 1;
    int nHitDice;
    int iECLModifier;
    float fCR = GetChallengeRating(OBJECT_SELF);
    object oKilledArea = GetArea(OBJECT_SELF);

    // Determine highest level in party
    object oMember = GetFirstFactionMember(oKiller, FALSE);
    while (GetIsObjectValid(oMember))
    {
        if (GetArea(oMember) == oKilledArea)
        {
            nPartyMembers++;
            nHitDice = GetHitDice(oMember);
            nPartyLevelSum += nHitDice;
            if (nHitDice > nHighLevel)
                nHighLevel = nHitDice;
        }
        oMember = GetNextFactionMember(oKiller, FALSE);
    }

    // Get the base Monster XP
    if ((nHighLevel <= 6) && (fCR < 1.5))
        nMonsterXP = BASEXP;
    else
    {
        nMonsterXP = BASEXP * nHighLevel;
        int nDiff = FloatToInt(((fCR < 1.0) ? 1.0 : fCR) - nHighLevel);

        switch (nDiff)
        {
        case -15:
            nMonsterXP /= 60;
            break;
        case -14:
            nMonsterXP /= 45;
            break;
        case -13:
            nMonsterXP /= 33;
            break;
        case -12:
            nMonsterXP /= 25;
            break;
        case -11:
            nMonsterXP /= 20;
            break;
        case -10:
            nMonsterXP /= 16;
            break;
        case -9:
            nMonsterXP /= 14;
            break;
        case -8:
            nMonsterXP /= 12;
            break;
        case -7:
            nMonsterXP /= 10;
            break;
        case -6:
            nMonsterXP /= 8;
            break;
        case -5:
            nMonsterXP = nMonsterXP * 3 / 16;
            break;
        case -4:
            nMonsterXP /= 4;
            break;
        case -3:
            nMonsterXP /= 3;
            break;
        case -2:
            nMonsterXP /= 2;
            break;
        case -1:
            nMonsterXP = nMonsterXP * 2 / 3;
            break;
        case 0:
            break;
        case 1:
            nMonsterXP = nMonsterXP * 3 / 2;
            break;
        case 2:
            nMonsterXP *= 2;
            break;
        case 3:
            nMonsterXP *= 3;
            break;
        case 4:
            nMonsterXP *= 4;
            break;
        case 5:
            nMonsterXP *= 5;
            break;
        case 6:
            nMonsterXP *= 6;
            break;
        case 7:
            nMonsterXP *= 7;
            break;
        case 8:
            nMonsterXP *= 8;
            break;
        case 9:
            nMonsterXP *= 9;
            break;
        default:
            nMonsterXP = 0;
        }
    }

    // Calculations for CR < 1
    if (fCR < 0.76 && nMonsterXP)
    {
        if (fCR <= 0.11)
            nMonsterXP = nMonsterXP / 10;
        else if (fCR <= 0.13)
            nMonsterXP = nMonsterXP / 8;
        else if (fCR <= 0.18)
            nMonsterXP = nMonsterXP / 6;
        else if (fCR <= 0.28)
            nMonsterXP = nMonsterXP / 4;
        else if (fCR <= 0.4)
            nMonsterXP = nMonsterXP / 3;
        else if (fCR <= 0.76)
            nMonsterXP = nMonsterXP / 2;

        // Only the CR vs Avg Level table could set nMonsterXP to 0... to fix any
        // round downs that result in 0:
        if (nMonsterXP == 0)
            nMonsterXP = 1;
    }

    if (GetHasSpellEffect(SPELL_DARKNESS))
        nMonsterXP = nMonsterXP / 5;

    // Give 1d6 bonusxp
    if (fCR > 3.0f)
        nMonsterXP += BONUSXP;

    if (nMonsterXP > nMaximumXP)
        nMonsterXP = nMaximumXP;

    // Calculate XP points per level
    float XP;
    float XPBoosted;
    float fXPPerLevel = IntToFloat(nMonsterXP) / IntToFloat(nPartyLevelSum);
    float XPPerLevelBoosted;
    int nPartyBoost;

    // Calculate XP boost for parties
    switch (nPartyMembers)
    {
    case 0:
        XPPerLevelBoosted = 0.0f;
        break;
    case 1:
        XPPerLevelBoosted = fXPPerLevel;
        break;
    case 2:
        XPPerLevelBoosted = fXPPerLevel * 1.5f; // 15 vs. 10 xp
        break;
    case 3:
        XPPerLevelBoosted = fXPPerLevel * 1.75f; // 11,6 vs. 7 xp
        break;
    case 4:
        XPPerLevelBoosted = fXPPerLevel * 1.875f; // 9,375 vs. 5 xp
        break;
    case 5:
        XPPerLevelBoosted = fXPPerLevel * 1.935f; // 7,74 vs. 4 xp
        break;
    default:
        XPPerLevelBoosted = fXPPerLevel * 2.0f; // e.g. 6,66 vs. 3,33 xp
        break;
    }

    object oPC = GetFirstFactionMember(oKiller, TRUE);
    while (GetIsObjectValid(oPC))
    {
        if (GetArea(oPC) == oKilledArea)
        {
            nHitDice = GetHitDice(oPC);
            XP = nHitDice * fXPPerLevel;
            XPBoosted = nHitDice * XPPerLevelBoosted;

            // Do not give out more XP for a party member than
            // he would get for soloing this creature
            if (XPBoosted > XP)
              XPBoosted = XP;

            if ((XPBoosted < 1.0f) && XPBoosted > (0.0f))
                XPBoosted = 1.0f;
            GiveXPToCreature(oPC,  FloatToInt(XPBoosted));
        }
        oPC = GetNextFactionMember(oKiller, TRUE);
    }
}

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Post by Themicles » Sun May 23, 2004 7:05 am

Again, if you don't believe me that the module's XP slider is set to 0, go kill something on Avlis. 1 message will be the XP given by the script, the other will always be 0.

If the slider were set at 2, then the second message would not always be 0.

-Themicles

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Post by Orleron » Sun May 23, 2004 9:48 am

int BASEXP = GetLocalInt(GetModule(), "BaseXP Value");

This line right here gets the BaseXP value of 4 from a local int on the module. That local int is taken from the database in avlis_onload, so it is used.


Here is the line from avlis_onload that does it:

Code: Select all


    //Initialize the experience earning rate
    string sBaseXP = GetGlobalSetting("BaseXP", GetModuleName(), "settings");
    SetLocalInt(OBJECT_SELF, "BaseXP Value", StringToInt(sBaseXP));


So yes, the BaseXP value in the settings table does affect it. Chass, the main problem is not the code. Avlis code was written very professionally in most cases and it works, and has been tested for bugs continuosly for 2 years now. (I'm not saying there are NO bugs, but few in the core code.) The problem is not that. The problem is that there is no documentation and that can make it frustrating to learn the code. This is just one example. *I* knew that the BaseXP value was set from the database onLoad because I wrote that part of the code. The only way for you to find that out is from trial and error, which sucks, I know. Someday we hope to have documentation. Anyone up for a project?


In any case, to make something just like Avlis, you would set BaseXP to 4 and slider to 0. CoPaP compliance requires that you do SOMETHING to get similar numbers to that. Personally, I prefer all worlds to use the exact same settings as we do, but I don't have the authority to tell them that.
Avlis: http://www.avlis.org

"My name is Orleron...a dungeonmaster...two years ago I got shot through a game client...I'm in a distant part of the internet aboard these servers of escaped mental patients...my players. I've made enemies, stupid, and annoying...now all I want to do is make CoPaP a reality, to warn Earth...Look inward(to your monitor) and share the newbies I've seen..."

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Post by Mistcaller » Sun May 23, 2004 1:30 pm

What should be clarified here is that Avlis is not using the same code anymore. We use a system based on 3rd ed. rules made by Aloro, which was under testing back then in February.

Since my name is mentioned here, I did "showed" Chass the code during a discussion, in order to help him finding holes and problems in Hala's similar code. IIRC the XP slider value was 2, but how it was handled by the system I knew not and therefore I didnt try to interpet it or explain it.

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Post by Starslayer_D » Sun May 23, 2004 2:59 pm

Bandit chief for lvl 30 character on Avlis: 1-6 XP
Bandit chief for lvl 30 character on hala: 1 XP

As you see, in avlis I get up to 600 % of the XP I get in Hala.

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Post by Chassagne » Sun May 23, 2004 4:07 pm

Sorry Mist, I really didnt want to bring you in such a useless polemic, I just tried to cite a conversation we had, and that was much helpful to me, since I had to deal with bugs everywhere, and flaws in many systems (xp and drops, but others too), as accurately as possible. Accuracy and communication seems to be the least of the concern of people writing things here *sighs*

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Post by Brick » Sun May 23, 2004 6:34 pm

A level 30 character isn't really a relevant example, because there aren't exactly alot of them.
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Post by Orleron » Sun May 23, 2004 7:18 pm

Ok then, instead of going on about polemics and lack of communication, find out what is what and get the darned thing fixed if it needs to be fixed. We all want communication, and communication is what we are doing right now. So find the proper people to verify the discrepancy and then find the people to adjust the code and let's get going.
Avlis: http://www.avlis.org

"My name is Orleron...a dungeonmaster...two years ago I got shot through a game client...I'm in a distant part of the internet aboard these servers of escaped mental patients...my players. I've made enemies, stupid, and annoying...now all I want to do is make CoPaP a reality, to warn Earth...Look inward(to your monitor) and share the newbies I've seen..."

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Post by Titanium Dragon » Sun May 23, 2004 8:21 pm

:roll:

Chass, I DID communicate with you, and I did make it clear. That is what I have been doing. For the love of Pete.

Ask some low-level character from Avlis to check xp there, and ask some low-level Hala person to do the same. Then get a high level (15thish?) level character to do the same on both worlds (Hala and Avlis). Record the xp for what monsters, then post those numbers up, and we can attach the CR of the creatures to the xp they give and compare them.

I am quite sure you will discover exactly what happens when you put the default 2% exp slider on top of the Avlis Custom XP script - you gain more xp. There's a reason people shoot up in levels (people on IRC were talking about someone who went from level 1 to 14 in a week on Hala, and its not terribly atypical - I was getting over 1K xp an hour as a level 10 character just walking around exploring, not even in dungeons). Test all you want, but that's what's going to happen.

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Post by Aloro » Sun May 23, 2004 9:44 pm

Avlis' exp system is as follows:

* nw_c2_default7 (standard death script) should call ExecuteScript("3ed_exp_sys", OBJECT_SELF)

* script 3ed_exp_sys controls EXP given (latest version is May 06, 2004) - if you need a copy of this, I would be only too happy to get it to you. This script was designed to reproduce the DMG EXP tables, with room for customization and modification.

* EXP sliders in the module should all be set to 0.

This will generate exactly the EXP Avlis gives. You don't need to do this, obviously - there's room in the Articles as I understand them for variance above and below the Avlis script. But if you'd like to give comparable EXP, this is how it can be most easily accomplished.

If you're using the above script (avlis_exp_sys), with the module EXP slider set at 2%, then you are most definitely giving over 3% EXP net. How this came about is not important, nor do I have any personal interest in blaming anybody. Rather, I'd just like to see everything resolved amicably. It appears that Hala's EXP might be exceeding the CoPaP guidelines, so rather than focussing on nonessentials, isn't it prudent just to objectively check the facts and make whatever changes are needed?

All our worlds are works in progress. All our worlds have occasional problems, and occasionally break the CoPaP guidelines. Our job as builders and members of the CoPaP community is to find those problems and fix them. Recriminations and arguments about how problems came to be are wasteful and generally only hurt the community.

So... Chass, or somebody on the Hala team: if your module EXP slider is set to 2 and you're using the script referenced above, you're exceeding the CoPaP guidelines for EXP given. Could you please make whatever adjustments are necessary? :)

- Aloro
Last edited by Aloro on Mon May 24, 2004 10:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Silk » Mon May 24, 2004 12:01 am

Ok, Chassagne... stop being so defensive. We're all on the same side here trying work together for the same goal... this is not a competition.

A problem was identified: Hala's XP slider is incorrectly set to 2% pushing Hala above CoPaP agreed upon standards.

A solution was identified: Set Hala's XP slider to 0%.

Everything else is masterbation and chest beating.
It doesn't matter who's fault it was... or who's in error... or any other form of bullshit. All that matters is that things get resolved according to AGREED upon CoPaP standards.

Getting defensive, and throwing accusations around only makes the situation goto shit... as this thread clearly shows. So... STOP... pretty please... with sugar on top... and a cherry... for the love of god... STOP.
-Silk

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Post by Chassagne » Mon May 24, 2004 4:28 am

Thanks Aloro for your answer, I'm glad to see that at least someone cared to post precise and useful information in this thread. Could you post the script you're talking about somewhere so that I can put it in the mod ? You can even send it to me by email.

Bytheway, I think this script should be added in a special thread, as a reference, and edited when modifications are made to it. This thread should be linked in the article of CoPaP that talked about exp balance. This article is obsolete, obviously.

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Post by lafferty » Mon May 24, 2004 10:43 am

Or maybe a standard copap module can be put somewhere? Anytime something in the core changes that should be reflected in all copap worlds one way or another you can see it in the module. I know that the copap guidelines are just recommendations and that means such a module would not be THE standard but it might help.

Anyway. what about a subversion or a CVS server for the script source files that are copap core recommendations?

edit: And maybe a wiki for the documentation could help. I happended to have worked a lot with wikis in the past few weeks and i can set one up if wished.
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Post by Orleron » Mon May 24, 2004 11:46 am

We already have all this. The problem we're facing is that I can't get people to keep it updated fast enough, and many CoPaP worlds are afraid to update their code regularly. Working on that.
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Post by lafferty » Mon May 24, 2004 12:16 pm

I see... well my experience with documenting projects is that if you want to do it properly you need about half the time in coding and half the time documenting. But there are also syngergistic effects when you modify a project often. I started heavily documenting my work about 1 year and a half ago and it really pays off, esp. when working in a team.
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