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Changeling Form Index inconsistencies

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 1:48 am
by terror2001
I'm not sure if all of CoPaP is supposed to have the same form indexing or if it is world independant. The three screen captures below show my character's list of choices for three different worlds. Most of the choices are the same except #7.

I checked the form # on Hala and Avlis and it was 2036. Wondering if there are other forms that are inconsistent across worlds as well.




The choice for #7 on Arkaz (Continue) basically breaks a changeling being able to change forms. Once changed to (Continue) you are an immobile and invisible object, and changing back to another form results in not changing. You have to log out and back in again to regain your form.

Obviously one should not change to a form called Continue, but I did it as a test.

I'm wondering if the forms list should be the same for all servers or not?

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 9:30 am
by terryrayc
strange...We should all be using the same system....I'd expect this to be the same all around.

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:06 am
by Final Shinryuu
Makes sense to me, actually. I think it may not be the system (which is the same) so much as the actual numbered entries in the appearances.2da file. What is one entry on Avlis may differ from that same number in Hala's 2da.

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 12:35 pm
by terryrayc
yes but the thing is the appearance.2da is in the copaphak file...we should all have the same.

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 1:04 pm
by Final Shinryuu
I know Hala has altered/moved some entries in theirs.
Avlis as well has a number of models that are only on their servers, and not in the CoPaP haks, so that would also indicate different numbering in the appearances.2da.

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 3:28 pm
by terryrayc
okay we cannot be changing entries in there...yes minor things maybe but not the order...and any custom entries HAVE to be in the copap hak or it'll screw up players that portal.

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 5:03 pm
by terror2001
IMHO if Changelings are to be supported across CoPaP then all of CoPaP should have the same form lists, otherwise the race is doomed to more bugginess than it already has.

I just brought this up so everyone would be aware of the inconsistancies and decide on a direction.

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 5:17 pm
by Zebranky
Final Shinryuu wrote:I know Hala has altered/moved some entries in theirs.
Avlis as well has a number of models that are only on their servers, and not in the CoPaP haks, so that would also indicate different numbering in the appearances.2da.
terryrayc wrote:okay we cannot be changing entries in there...yes minor things maybe but not the order...and any custom entries HAVE to be in the copap hak or it'll screw up players that portal.
Hades also has a custom appearance.2da; in fact, I think it's one of two 2das we've changed. However, AFAIK, nothing has been moved, just added. Terry is right on this one.

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 6:52 am
by Arkonswrath
You are incorrect Terry. The only affect an altered appearance 2da is going to have is on changelings who copy a form that is on one world, but not on another. They won't have access to that form.

Hala has almost always had it's own appearance.2da because we have custom dragons, a custom half-ogre model, etc and there has never been a problem for anyone other than changelings who have forms from hala that aren't on another world.

My changeling has forms that are specific to Hades, one or two that are specific to Avlis, and a few that are specific to Hala.

The thing is... if a changeling has a form, and that form number is a different creature on another world... they will just turn unto whatever that number is on that world.

So if a person is a half-ogre with our custom half-oger form, and they go to avlis with a regular half-ogre form, they will be whatever the half-ogre form is set to on avlis because the number in the 2da is the same.

To be honest... at this stage in the game, it's likely not going to be possible for there to be a coherent copap.hak update for this. The reason being? Each world that puts custom content in could very likely be putting custom content in the same numbers that another world has already used which means that putting it into a copap.hak is going to force one of those worlds to go through and change anything that is using that entry.

The appearance.2das on worlds have been different for the last 2 years
Not sure why it should be an issue now. If a way can be found to fix this without causing unnecessary stress on a world, then i'm for it.

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:44 am
by Final Shinryuu
Exactly, Arkon.
At this point, there's not really anything we can do, and it can't easily be standardized. So in response to Terror2001: This is just the way it is, sorry.

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:06 am
by terryrayc
sigh...and this is one of the major problems we have....

it wouldn't be so bad if we had split the rows in the 2da between worlds...the example above is what happens when you have an entry that someone else does not have.

If a player who is use to selecting #7 and does it here will be messed up....yes it's not major but it does seem a little lazy on our part.

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 9:47 pm
by Zebranky
The best workaround at this point is to prevent taking a form that isn't in the copaphak. While I'd love to be standardized, so much in the modules would have to be fixed that it would be completely not worth it.

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:07 am
by Themicles
Simply put, Changlings didn't exist in the original design, and rules for the CoPaP and Universal Haks.

It was always stated that as long as a player couldn't actually carry it across a portal, you can deviate from the CoPaP haks a bit. This meant you could add extra monsters to fight that didn't have to be added CoPaP-wide.

Of course, now with changelings... anything in appearances.2da can be "carried" over. But with changelings, the consequences aren't as dire as, say, an item (crashes) or major feat changes (ELC boots).

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 8:05 am
by terryrayc
*sigh* I know there isn't much we can do.....just bugs me is all.

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:46 pm
by terror2001
So, now that the teams know about it, and it's not likely to get fixed, it would be a good idea, IMHO, to let the communities on all worlds know about changeling forms that may not be avaliable on other worlds and the potential risk associated with a form number that doesn't exist so they don't get stuck as an invisible object.

Granted the unique world forms will be a rare case for a changeling to copy and take to another world, and messages about problems associated written in various world "Ask The Team" threads even rarer, it will come up again, and having something written up already that people can read beforehand would go a long way into saving yourself the time of explaining it to each one.

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 6:07 pm
by Arkonswrath

As i've said before... I play a Changeling. When a person uses changeling ability, it copies the line number from the appearance.2da of the server it copied the form from. If another world has some other form in that place, then when they use the changeling ability in that world, they will see whatever that world's form is set to that line number...

However, if they have a form that the other server doesn't have at all... IE line 2100 from one world that is blank on another, all they will see is a Continue mark on their changeling menu. They will be unable to use that slot unless they remove it and add something from that world on, however when they go back to the world that it is on, it'll be there.

Now, I have tried to portal to a world while in a form that that world did not support and all that happened was I was unable to log in. As far as I am aware, there were no further problems. I logged back into the other world, changed back into a basic elf form and then portalled over with no problems.

There should not be any issues to any servers from this.

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 6:57 pm
by terror2001
Technically, you can select and change to the "Continue" form. All I can tell you is that when I changed to "Continue" on Arkaz, I became an immobile, invisible object. Trying to change back to Elf after that did not work; was still an immobile, invisible object. I had to relog to gain the Elf form back.