Proposal to remove uber/banned gear from the economy

Development for CoPaP
JollyOrc
Ambassador: Tairis'nàdur
Posts: 380
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 1:13 am
Location: Catar, D'Aton Academy of the Blade
Contact:

Post by JollyOrc » Fri Apr 08, 2005 6:57 am

It was meant to be voluntarily from the very start of the discussion.

The "not-voluntarily" part came from the implication that DMs might loot the non-tagged stuff more agressively. But they won't, at least not more so than they do now, so the issue is moot.
bye,
JollyOrc
___________________
Tairis'nàdur - Senior DM, Catara World Owner
-= fewer rules - more fun =-

Enverex
Planewalker
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:41 am
Location: Worcester, UK
Contact:

Post by Enverex » Fri Apr 08, 2005 7:15 am

Anyone else think that if it is voulentary that it will infact be rather pointless as the people that have the items aren't likely to do this anyway?

Sort of like a gun amnesty. The people that give up the guns aren't the ones that are likely to go running around on killing sprees...

JollyOrc
Ambassador: Tairis'nàdur
Posts: 380
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 1:13 am
Location: Catar, D'Aton Academy of the Blade
Contact:

Post by JollyOrc » Fri Apr 08, 2005 7:46 am

because it benefits a lot of people. And even Star (who's main is one of the likely candidates for "not so much benefit") liked the idea.
bye,
JollyOrc
___________________
Tairis'nàdur - Senior DM, Catara World Owner
-= fewer rules - more fun =-

Tristan_Durst
World Leader: Arborea
Posts: 236
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2004 1:04 am

Post by Tristan_Durst » Fri Apr 08, 2005 8:14 am

Edited: by myself ;)
Last edited by Tristan_Durst on Fri Apr 08, 2005 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Orleron
Multiverse Scholar
Posts: 1247
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2003 11:15 am
Location: Avlis
Contact:

Post by Orleron » Fri Apr 08, 2005 8:20 am

A proposal to make people tag their items involuntarily will never pass, so we need to move on without that idea.

This discussion was not meant to be a "quick fix" discussion on fixing item balance, and btw, as far as I know, there are not any "banned" items still being handed out. All the ones in circulation are from before. Also, remember that the point of CoPaP is not to take away everyone's items just because a new WIP is linking and they're afraid that they'll be inundated with magic. A vast vast majority of the stuff that's out there has been earned through people who have played here for years. Doing things to remove those items if they don't volunteer to get them tagged is not in the best interest of the players, and is not fair. It is easy for a new WL to come in here and assume that because people have this stuff it is still being given out, but that is simply not true, and if there IS any case of it, it should be reported to the staff of the world where it happened. Having one player give another an uber item does not count. We're only talking about staff giving them out or drops from the database.



The reason why I have given consideration to Psyco's idea is because it is slow-acting. It is not a drastic change that rocks people's worlds, and if you look at my record, those are the kinds of things I have always supported. Part of the reason why CoPaP is so successful is because we DO NOT do drastic things out of knee-jerk reactions, such as item/gold/character wipes and item removal.

It's not a CoPaP-splitting issue. If you are not down with it, you are not CoPaP. So how can it be? :)
Avlis: http://www.avlis.org

"My name is Orleron...a dungeonmaster...two years ago I got shot through a game client...I'm in a distant part of the internet aboard these servers of escaped mental patients...my players. I've made enemies, stupid, and annoying...now all I want to do is make CoPaP a reality, to warn Earth...Look inward(to your monitor) and share the newbies I've seen..."

Tharliss
Noobie
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 10:16 pm

Post by Tharliss » Fri Apr 08, 2005 9:22 am

It seems that part of the concern of tagging items is due to the weight/bulk issue and not being able to put them in bags for storage and weight reduction. Star's example of 50lb's worth of armor is a good one.

Not to speak for the DM's, but I think most would be pretty understanding if you had the majority of stuff 'tagged', but not everything if it influences the gameplay of the PC that you've been working on for years.

i.e. I'd be more than happy to tag my bracers, belt, rings, boots, cloak, kukris, etc. These items are not overly bulky and Zach wears them 90% of the time anyway.

However, Zach DOES need to carry a complete set of other gear while in disguise. Since those items are worn only 10% of the time, it would affect gameplay if they couldn't be stored in bags until needed.

As I said before, I support Psyco's concept. And I'm glad to hear Orleron say that nothing will be mandatory, as there will be scenarios where a "CoPaP Wide Edict" would have a backlash affect.

Apandapion
CoPaP: Player Coordinator
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 2:40 am

Post by Apandapion » Fri Apr 08, 2005 9:46 am

You know, if you let *everyone* make any one non-bag item a "no drop plot" item once per year, then people wouldn't look at this as "yet another anti-uber-gear initiative", they'd look at it as a nice christmas present. Yet it'd be mostly the uber gear that would get no-drop plotted, so it would make inroads on the problem. It'd also be nice for letting people hold onto character-defining things that arn't 1% gear.

It might also stop this kind of thing at lower levels, where low levels get good gear as hand-me-downs. For instance, someone gave Malin his +1 Composite Longbow, and he will probably give it to someone else if he finds better. However, if I *could* NDP something, it would be either that bow or my manticore cloak.

Starslayer_D
Ambassador: Abyss404
Posts: 153
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 1:52 pm
Location: Senior DM Abyss404

Post by Starslayer_D » Fri Apr 08, 2005 9:57 am

Idea: Add an option to tag weighty items as plot and weight reduction? The value increase doesn't matter, as it's plot then.

Voluntarely has the benefit of eliminating things one retirement at a time.

Psyco
Planewalker
Posts: 37
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 8:18 pm
Location: New Zealand (+13 GMT)

Post by Psyco » Sun Apr 10, 2005 4:39 pm

OK, this seems to have run its course now, and nothing new really seems to be coming up.

Overall I would say there is support for the idea. Other points that have been raised.

1) DMs looting if not tagged.

Already happens, nothing new, is not an issue, no need to discuss.

2) Make it available to all (e.g. everyone allowed to tag 1 item)

IMO this is a bad idea. You will increase the workload for DMs. There will be lots of complaints, "I didn't realise it meant i couldn't put it in a bag, can you untag it".

And more impotantly, it is not what this proposal is trying to achieve. This proposal is not trying to help out players by making their best items plot. It is trying to find a way to remove the uber/banned items from the economy. If someones best item is a +2 composite bow, I am sure it means a lot to them, these items are rareish, but to the CoPaP economy it means very little. The fact that some characters will have their best items marked plot is a side effect.

3) optional or forced on players

Anything that is done will have to be optional.

As Orleron said, its not the CoPaP way to just remove items, or force players to have something done to them, these people (in most cases) have worked damn hard to get these items. Making them plot will be seen as a good thing, enough of a good thing so that it counteracts the bad things that goes with this and means people will sign up for it.

We do not need to get every single item tagged for this to have a positive effect on the economy.

4) Weight/encumberance & inventory space

There is nothing that can be done about inventory space being taken up.

Weight of items cannot be adjusted on the fly by DMs currently. It would be possible to create a wand that allowed a DM to add weight reduction properties to an item, but this does create extra work. The advantage of just tagging something plot/undropable is that it can already be done with the tools available (DMFI wand)

Starslayer_D
Ambassador: Abyss404
Posts: 153
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 1:52 pm
Location: Senior DM Abyss404

Post by Starslayer_D » Mon Apr 11, 2005 3:21 am

So I won't be tagging my armors and most bulky items, but the small stuff wich is still above target levels:
Greater belts, Ring of Power, cloak +5, Thieves Hood, Nastasious Knuckle, my main sword... yes... sounds good.

PS: What happens if a bag gets tagged? *grin*

Moredo
Planewalker
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 7:08 pm
Location: Norway

Post by Moredo » Mon Apr 11, 2005 3:43 am

Just a small question.. people with tagged items, does that mean that those items are hands off from DM looting and such?

Arkonswrath
Ambassador: Hala
Posts: 447
Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 3:57 am

Post by Arkonswrath » Mon Apr 11, 2005 4:42 am

If it's plot/no drop it can't be looted as it won't drop on a corpse. Looting directly off of a PCs person to my knowledge has never been acceptable practice, so unless I am mistaken, Yes, that means that the tagged items are hands off to DMs.

Basically what this means is the same thing it has always meant, if you see it on a corpse, you can take it. If you don't, you can't.

Gairus
Groundling
Posts: 84
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 11:30 pm
Location: CoPaP

Post by Gairus » Mon Apr 11, 2005 6:58 am

Arkonswrath wrote:If it's plot/no drop it can't be looted as it won't drop on a corpse. Looting directly off of a PCs person to my knowledge has never been acceptable practice, so unless I am mistaken, Yes, that means that the tagged items are hands off to DMs.

Basically what this means is the same thing it has always meant, if you see it on a corpse, you can take it. If you don't, you can't.
I don't see taking plot things off PCs if there's sufficient IC reasons to be even remotely unacceptable if a PC needs punishing. No more than anything else I deem appropriate. Though someone would have to ~really~ piss me off given i've never seen fit to punish anyone at all before, but still...

Orleron
Multiverse Scholar
Posts: 1247
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2003 11:15 am
Location: Avlis
Contact:

Post by Orleron » Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:51 am

Correct, this means DM's won't be able to take that item through the course of *normal* looting.

As for bags, if they have one of the banned properties on them, yes, they can be tagged. If not, because they can't, then no. :)
Avlis: http://www.avlis.org

"My name is Orleron...a dungeonmaster...two years ago I got shot through a game client...I'm in a distant part of the internet aboard these servers of escaped mental patients...my players. I've made enemies, stupid, and annoying...now all I want to do is make CoPaP a reality, to warn Earth...Look inward(to your monitor) and share the newbies I've seen..."

Tristan_Durst
World Leader: Arborea
Posts: 236
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2004 1:04 am

Post by Tristan_Durst » Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:40 am

/me just remembered that Plot/non-drop can be placed in bags in inventory.

Starslayer_D
Ambassador: Abyss404
Posts: 153
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 1:52 pm
Location: Senior DM Abyss404

Post by Starslayer_D » Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:44 am

Oh? Really?

Means the argument about weight was moot?

But wait... such items in a bag get transfered with the bag? To the corpse? Tag bag after all, as well...

Gairus
Groundling
Posts: 84
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 11:30 pm
Location: CoPaP

Post by Gairus » Mon Apr 11, 2005 10:07 am

non drop items can not be placed in bags or whatnot.

plot items stay in bags on death (on the corpse)

plot bags stay in inventory but dump all non-plot inventory on the corpse

plot items in plot bags stay in the inventory.

Moredo
Planewalker
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 7:08 pm
Location: Norway

Post by Moredo » Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:41 pm

What the planar sage said! :)

Drager
World Leader: Drager's Nest
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 8:55 pm
Location: www.tesgames.com
Contact:

Post by Drager » Mon Apr 11, 2005 3:40 pm

wow alot of well warranted discussion on this i would like to see it optional but I am kinda wishing I could think of a way to make it well worth the person to get it tagged.
Faith in the heart of the weak leads to great Strength!!
-Drager-

heronimous fox
Noobie
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 9:36 am

Post by heronimous fox » Tue Apr 12, 2005 1:20 pm

I like the idea JO mentioned of trading in magical items to achieve something in game. I have done this in tha past and will do so in the future.

I would also trade in such items for something quirky, something useful but strange. This sounds very loose but appeals to me as a player.

E.G. As a crafter if I was offered as part of a plot to gain some knowledge in exchange for something I had I would.

But this would probably be impracticle copap wide because of the number of players/items.

IN conclusion as a player if the team asked me to trash items for the 'greater good' I would, because it wouldnt stop me enjoying the game and the people here.

Xeo Bodacea
Planar Sage
Posts: 51
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 7:58 am
Location: UK

Post by Xeo Bodacea » Tue Apr 12, 2005 5:59 pm

heronimous fox wrote:I like the idea JO mentioned of trading in magical items to achieve something in game. I have done this in tha past and will do so in the future.

I would also trade in such items for something quirky, something useful but strange. This sounds very loose but appeals to me as a player.

E.G. As a crafter if I was offered as part of a plot to gain some knowledge in exchange for something I had I would.

But this would probably be impracticle copap wide because of the number of players/items.

IN conclusion as a player if the team asked me to trash items for the 'greater good' I would, because it wouldnt stop me enjoying the game and the people here.
I have to agree with HFOX and JO in a over view.

but....

What Pysco is saying makes sense and if its steps towards in balancing the Umber Item issue then any atempt or work should be welcomed.

But on the whole I can't see why that people get protective over equipment?

My PC Isamu by standards looking back had some umber gear... 4+ int helm for example not many of those about. Three 5+'s and even traded in with a DM a mind imunne Item for a sweet Necro Staff that just had a summon skeleton a few bits... but it was the look and at the time only CEP skull staff, so that to me was more awesome than umberness.

I can only say what I done or think and no way say what others should do with thier equipment.

I did send a PM to a Avlis DM and said "nope not getting your stuff back." Which is cool, because its just stuff. Rolled up a new PC and got on with the RP which I joined Avlis to do and DM on Catara (When I get the haks back on *winks at JO*)

In all everyone makes good points but I think the steps taken by Psyco and backed by Orleon should be tested.

I think theres lots of debate from all sides, players, DM's, team members, new PW's but for now I think "lets give it a shot".

What harm can it do?

Psyco
Planewalker
Posts: 37
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 8:18 pm
Location: New Zealand (+13 GMT)

Post by Psyco » Wed Apr 13, 2005 1:26 am

Note to any DMs.

You need to set plot and cursed via the DMFI wand. The DMFI nodrop property is something totally different and only applies to NPCs.

Arcsylver
Groundling
Posts: 105
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 9:39 pm
Contact:

Post by Arcsylver » Wed Apr 13, 2005 8:24 am

Fro m CoPaP email:

Some of the On Hit effects (dispels, vorpal and the slays in
particular)
followed by

The only
stipulations are that the item MUST contain at least one of the
properties on the list above, and the item cannot be a weapon.
Correct me if I am wrong here but doesn't the on hit property sort of require that the item be a weapon of some sort?

Starslayer_D
Ambassador: Abyss404
Posts: 153
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 1:52 pm
Location: Senior DM Abyss404

Post by Starslayer_D » Wed Apr 13, 2005 9:44 am

HotU contains a few armors with on hit effects.

llordssoth
Noobie
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue May 17, 2005 8:13 am
Location: North Wales, PA

Post by llordssoth » Tue May 17, 2005 5:22 pm

As one of the "type 1" players on the server, I must loudly protest the attempt to meke me voluntarily do ANYTHING.

Now that THAT is out of the way...

On my last persistant world, there were a number of items decided by staff to be "game unbalancing". This was resolved by letting the player base know that on a certain date, usually about 2 weeks from the decision, that these items would become illegal. Players were advised to sell off or discard such items before that time. During those 2 weeks the staff was forced to dive into the toolset, and find/remove any and all items of the now banned type. (ie: work work work) Any player found with a banned item after this was either stripped of the item, or advised to lose it immediately.

Suffice to say that after numerous experiences such as that, everything being discussed here seems VERY reasonable. Granted, I do not have any gear at the moment that qualifies, so I am not speaking from experience HERE. However, being given the choice to tag an item and KEEP it thru death, while understanding that if I go to play a different character and retire the current, the item will fade away with the first, sounds like quite an apportunity.

(Trust me, having played a dex based rogue with a str of 8, hearing that the bags of holding in your pack are now illegal, and you have 14 days to divest yourself of them....and then deciding what gear to get rid of cuz yer a weak little pissant.....it ain't pretty!)

Proceed on, oh wise and benevolent CoPaP staff! We, the lowly yet loyal masses shall await with baited breath your decision, and shall hasten to comply with whatever it may be!

(The Peanut Gallery has spoken)
(ps: Hey Orl, Scooder says "hey!")

Post Reply