An Idea: Improveing Clerical Spells

Development for CoPaP
Khaelindra
Groundling
Posts: 94
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2004 5:48 am
Location: Deventer, the Netherlands

Post by Khaelindra »

People will do whatever the economy dictates. That isn't working on CoPAP at the moment, because some worlds have unlimited heals (and deathwards) for sale cheap, and others have them as only high end craftables. I actually feel bad for the avlis alchemist who's high end product is being laughed at.
Yup, i know i stopped trying to pour hours and hours of crafting effort in being able to make a HEAL-potion, when i could just hope over to another world and in the second area after the portal buy stacks of HEAL-potions at 30K per 10. It's just not worth the trouble, especially with monsters dropping 300-400 gold per drop.
As for how that relates to clerical spells, well, it devalues their role in a party. Level 4 and 6 spells aren't really supposed to be in a bottle, and if they are they should be insanely expensive, not something to carry around a sack of 100+ of.
True as far as parties go, i find often that high-levels don't even bother waiting for a bandage or spell to be applied to them, but readily chug multiple HEAL's per battle as soon as they drop below half. Widespread availability makes them cheap.

I can understand their value for soloing though, not something to encourage but also simple unavoidable for people at times due to both IC and OOC reasons like timezones, etc. As a result i'm a bit on the edge here. Overall i'd say: don't rmove them, but -DO- make them Avlis-priced...at 10K per HEAL-potion it's still not impossible, but at least people will not use them as whimsically as they do now.
slave.of.emotions
Groundling
Posts: 106
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 3:32 pm
Location: The European Union
Contact:

Post by slave.of.emotions »

On the server i played before COPAP heal potions were immposible to get.. only way was to kill a ancient red dragon.. that as far i know was not set anywhere in the world :)

HEAL potions are especialy on CvC oriented servers a issue. Nearly the only way to kill a high level player is a mage, because he can immpobilise him with a bigby spell. When ever a other player tryes it they can just drink heal potion after potion with makes it hard for a non-rich, non-mage character to win a CvC fight.

I had on my character 10 heal potions that i never used, simply because i was keeping as much gold as possible for a project i was thinking off, but at some point many players will have nothing more to spend they gold for and collect alot of it and spend they gold for potions *shrugs*

*grins* since to much positiv energy is not healty too (on positive energy planes characters can die of it) it might be interesting to make a % chance of a character to get knocked out or die, depending on how oftens he uses a heal potion :twisted:
Starslayer_D
Ambassador: Abyss404
Posts: 153
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 1:52 pm
Location: Senior DM Abyss404

Post by Starslayer_D »

Heal potions also help to survive other things.. I still remember being trapped by spawned giants and elementals and slowly running out of spells.. luckely, I had some potions of heal.

Another BIG advantage of heal potions: While they draw an AoO, the attack doesn't interrupt the drinking. Spells can be interupted by foes.
If they are of the kind wich allways hits for 60 pts of dmg, you'll sure prefer something wich surefire works.
teleri
World Leader: The Outlands
Posts: 497
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 2:24 pm
Location: Sigil
Contact:

Post by teleri »

Khaelindra wrote:
teleri wrote: I see no reason to tinker with them.
Doug did, and we agree, hence the brainstorming.
Sounds like an Avlis change to me then not really a CoPaP change (:
Cheers,
teleri

Building the Outlands one GateTown at a Time
[url=http://www.greatring.net][color=blue][u][b]The Outlands[/color][/u][/b][/url]
[url=http://www.diterlizzi.com/art/games/planescape/index.html][color=blue][u][b]The Look of PlaneScape[/color][/u][/b][/url]
Khaelindra
Groundling
Posts: 94
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2004 5:48 am
Location: Deventer, the Netherlands

Post by Khaelindra »

teleri wrote:
Khaelindra wrote:
teleri wrote: I see no reason to tinker with them.
Doug did, and we agree, hence the brainstorming.
Sounds like an Avlis change to me then not really a CoPaP change (:
So if you propose something we must brush it off as "sounds like a Outlands change only and not for CoPaP"?

I thought the idea of CoPaP was also take discuss ideas on improvements WITH EACH OTHER. Isn't this so? All worlds are free to implement a spell change or not, but to discuss it only on a restricted board means denying other world/people the ooprtunity to give input and derive inspiration or ideas from them.
slave.of.emotions
Groundling
Posts: 106
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 3:32 pm
Location: The European Union
Contact:

Post by slave.of.emotions »

K. you forget the avlis is the only word with a working trinking system where you can make potions.

And before you keep choping on the other servers, avlis is the only server i have seen where player run around with "cast level 9 spell"- items.
Khaelindra
Groundling
Posts: 94
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2004 5:48 am
Location: Deventer, the Netherlands

Post by Khaelindra »

slave.of.emotions wrote:K. you forget the avlis is the only word with a working trinking system where you can make potions.

And before you keep choping on the other servers, avlis is the only server i have seen where player run around with "cast level 9 spell"- items.
What is this referring to?
teleri
World Leader: The Outlands
Posts: 497
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 2:24 pm
Location: Sigil
Contact:

Post by teleri »

Khaelindra wrote:
teleri wrote:
Khaelindra wrote: Doug did, and we agree, hence the brainstorming.
Sounds like an Avlis change to me then not really a CoPaP change (:
So if you propose something we must brush it off as "sounds like a Outlands change only and not for CoPaP"?

I thought the idea of CoPaP was also take discuss ideas on improvements WITH EACH OTHER. Isn't this so? All worlds are free to implement a spell change or not, but to discuss it only on a restricted board means denying other world/people the ooprtunity to give input and derive inspiration or ideas from them.
Not quite what I ment.

The ideas hear are marginally interesting but I see a lot of restrictions being placed, and am not sure that those restrictions will improve the player fun level as a whole.

When I look at an idea that is my fist concideration. Sorry if it sounded harsh. But the part that seems broken is the Massive number of +1 and +3 healing kits generated in Avlis to gain Crafting levels I know I made something in the area of 900 +1 and +3 kits and in the end gave them away to clear out my inventory. I am now carrying over 200 +6 kits because I cleaned out one of my rental rooms so someone else could have it.

[rant]
I would that Bioware had made the system so that you can only use a kit on wounds that ...
  1. Were inflicted "recently" (2-3 hours game time)
  2. Can only be treated once untill you get new wounds
  3. can only heal the amount of dammage recived by the wound -1
  4. don't cure poison or desiease only allow for a new save
  5. cannot use multiple kits to save from poison or desiease
This would mesh much better with PnP but they didn't and the game does function based on the premis they developed.

Heck if you really want to move to a low magic meliu maybe we shoud institute the standard rate of healing for PnP, 1 hp plus Con bonus per rest.
[/rant]

Sorry about that you got me started (: the NWN enginge as it exists today has some limits and you, CoPaP and the folks who contribute to NWNVault have fixed many of them <hurray>, but some of the inhearant design decisions (heal all when you rest) are part of how a video game world works. I cannot see someone after a big battle camping and resting for a week in game because they need to heal. Healing Kits are marginaly broken but the avlibility is more the cause of the break than the function of the kits themselves.
Cheers,
teleri

Building the Outlands one GateTown at a Time
[url=http://www.greatring.net][color=blue][u][b]The Outlands[/color][/u][/b][/url]
[url=http://www.diterlizzi.com/art/games/planescape/index.html][color=blue][u][b]The Look of PlaneScape[/color][/u][/b][/url]
slave.of.emotions
Groundling
Posts: 106
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 3:32 pm
Location: The European Union
Contact:

Post by slave.of.emotions »

Khaelindra wrote:
slave.of.emotions wrote:K. you forget the avlis is the only word with a working trinking system where you can make potions.

And before you keep choping on the other servers, avlis is the only server i have seen where player run around with "cast level 9 spell"- items.
What is this referring to?
About you complaining that you can buy them cheap from a normal shop outside of avlis. They cost there still more then what one pays on avlis for a crafted heal potion or semi-heal. Those potions of heavingly healing or how ever they are called would be for my char just the same as a heal potion since he have low hitpoints.
Wyrmwing
Clueless Prime
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 1:18 pm
Location: Netherlands (GMT +1)

Post by Wyrmwing »

Crafting potions of Heal is time-consuming and expensive in terms of ingredients and that's discounting the ungodly number of hours one must devote to increasing the alchemy skill before they are reliably succesful to craft. There aren't more than a handful of characters capable of both doing this, and in the numbers to supply more than a handful of others. Compared to potions that can be bought in unlimited numbers for a very low price if the character routinely goes out adventuring, this isn't something that should be compared.

And I think Khaelindra meant to inquire about items which cast level 9 spells. I've yet to see this myself, so I'm curious as well just who's running around with those.
Roaming on Avlis
Khaelindra
Groundling
Posts: 94
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2004 5:48 am
Location: Deventer, the Netherlands

Post by Khaelindra »

slave.of.emotions wrote:
Khaelindra wrote:
slave.of.emotions wrote:K. you forget the avlis is the only word with a working trinking system where you can make potions.

And before you keep choping on the other servers, avlis is the only server i have seen where player run around with "cast level 9 spell"- items.
What is this referring to?
About you complaining that you can buy them cheap from a normal shop outside of avlis. They cost there still more then what one pays on avlis for a crafted heal potion or semi-heal. Those potions of heavingly healing or how ever they are called would be for my char just the same as a heal potion since he have low hitpoints.
Aah, i see. And those Elixers would be the "level 9 spell items"you refer to...right...

Well to spell it out yet another time...on ANY world 3000 gold for a HEAL-potion is way too little given how much gold you make from even standard spawns. On ANY world now the function of clerics/healers is downgraded due to every high-level being able to afford dozens and dozens of those potions. It doesn't have one jota to do with having a home crafting system in place. 3000 a pop is simply way too cheap to not use them as standard guzzling material. On ANY world the raising of the price of HEAL-potions to 10000 would put a bit of a lid on that. In fact, Avlis' possibility to make them yourself should be tuned down as well, or simply the price of the ingredients raised from around 1000 to around 4000-5000.

Read again before playing the low-blow "world-bashing" card again. This has nothing to do with Avlis.
Khaelindra
Groundling
Posts: 94
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2004 5:48 am
Location: Deventer, the Netherlands

Post by Khaelindra »

Wyrmwing wrote: And I think Khaelindra meant to inquire about items which cast level 9 spells. I've yet to see this myself, so I'm curious as well just who's running around with those.
Indeed. Put substance behind your claim. The only high-level casting items i know were given out on Hala, when for some plot a host of sequencer cloaks were handed out. Those would theoretically have the ability to cast 9th level spells, but were adjusted/ruled to contain only a restricted choices of spells.

So, which 9th lvl spell items originate from Avlis?
Tristan_Durst
World Leader: Arborea
Posts: 236
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2004 1:04 am

Post by Tristan_Durst »

Alright play nice all. :) Lets try to stay on the topic at hand, Improvements to the Clerical Heal System. I have seen some great sugestions in the thread, and if someone wanted to tackle the issue, and test drive it it would be cool to see.

Let's not get of on a wild tangent here, about what world did what, or gave out what. Only thing I can say, is if you see something that is aganist the Articals take it to your world's admin team, and the ambassadors and Dms will inquire about it. :)

thanks,

- Tristan
Flakey
Ambassador: Mystara
Posts: 102
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 3:33 pm
Location: Rockhome

Post by Flakey »

Khaelindra wrote: 3000 a pop is simply way too cheap to not use them as standard guzzling material.
Can get them even cheaper. They easily purchased off crafters in avlis for 2000 to 2500.

That does not even count Ed, who gave them away at cost, because he used to make a few hundred a month.
Wyrmwing
Clueless Prime
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 1:18 pm
Location: Netherlands (GMT +1)

Post by Wyrmwing »

Crafters aren't an unlimited supply though. And neither are they always conveniently online, at the very same spot to run to each and every time, and willing to sell to your character.

So raising the prices of npc-bought potions of Heal may very well open up new rp possibilities.
Roaming on Avlis
Guest

Post by Guest »

*coughs* ROTE P-merchants sell heal potions. Does that count as an NPC seller, since players craft his inventory?

And, I dont think full heals are too cheap. Maybe playing with an epic character they are, but for non epics 2500- 3000 per potion is quite pricey, when you could buy a 50 or 60 heal kits for that same 3000 gold-- some NPC merchants sell +1 kits for about 50 gold.
Starslayer_D
Ambassador: Abyss404
Posts: 153
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 1:52 pm
Location: Senior DM Abyss404

Post by Starslayer_D »

Even clerics of epic levels need heal potions from time to time, as in events, they can run out of spells. Or as I pointed out above, spells suffer concentration checks, and are not relieable. Or you could be in the frontline as fighter, and your healer trapped elsewhere.
Heal potions are a fact of NWN life. After all, we play at high speed, not at leisure like in PnP, where you can decide round by round what to do, and have all the leisure in teh world to position yourself and implement your plan. When your HP drop by 25% per second, you'll be very, very happy to have potions of heal avaiable.

I am defenitely against making heal potions too expensive.

Or I ask a simultaneous tonng down of monsters, to reduce the + 50 BAB, 70 pts of dmg monsters wich do exist all over. ;)
Khaelindra
Groundling
Posts: 94
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2004 5:48 am
Location: Deventer, the Netherlands

Post by Khaelindra »

Starslayer_D wrote: I ask a simultaneous tonng down of monsters, to reduce the + 50 BAB, 70 pts of dmg monsters wich do exist all over. ;)
I can live with that... 8)
WrathoG777
Clueless Prime
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 2:38 pm

Post by WrathoG777 »

There is definately a problem. or several.

1 Heal potions should not exist, or should at least be rare/expensive enough that noone thinks of them as standard consumables.
- Nor should there be a need for them as there currently is. A standard group fighting standard enemies in standard gear should not require the use of heal potions to make it through the day.

2 Heal kits should be greatly limited. They are currently cheap, unlimited healing. There are many suggestions floating around about how they could be fixed. These range from non-combat, d20 -> less, fixing disease/poison bug, time limit, to raiseing the price to compare with curative potions.
- Nor should there be a need for them as there currently is. See #3.

3 A party, with a druid/cleric/bard+paly should be able to adventure together. That one healer should be enough to keep their group alive throughout their adventureing day. That is assumeing the group does not do something stupid. Cure serious wounds should cure serious wounds, it should not penalize melees that invest in Con instead of str/dex.
- This is not the case apparently. From the opinion of the majority, healers cannot reliably fullfil their role in a group.


All of the above need fixing in one way or another.

I think the extreme. Heal potions should be completely removed. Heal kits should be made 1/day. and... #3 is already true, but cure spells need help. Players would adapt and builders would tone done areas they feel need toneing due to the new way things work.
[size=67]
That is my opinion, not nessasarily anyone else's opinon, might just be, but that would be a coincodence, and damnit, sometimes the crap I write is not even my opinion either.[/size]
slave.of.emotions
Groundling
Posts: 106
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 3:32 pm
Location: The European Union
Contact:

Post by slave.of.emotions »

Wyrmwing wrote:Crafters aren't an unlimited supply though. And neither are they always conveniently online, at the very same spot to run to each and every time, and willing to sell to your character.

So raising the prices of npc-bought potions of Heal may very well open up new rp possibilities.
There is yet still the aspect that when prices of heal potions will be incrased alot then rich characters can still buy them (espacialy epic since they dont need to spend gold or gear or what everanymore) while not so rich characters will be left without any.
WrathoG777
Clueless Prime
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 2:38 pm

Post by WrathoG777 »

slave.of.emotions wrote:There is yet still the aspect that when prices of heal potions will be incrased alot then rich characters can still buy them (espacialy epic since they dont need to spend gold or gear or what everanymore) while not so rich characters will be left without any.
There will always be a disparity between the rich and the poor. The fundemental CoPap wide changes can only look at the average person to make these kinds of decisions.

The rich will always have plenty of everything. The poor will never have enough to meet their needs. There is nothing that can be done to change that.

It has been gone over time and time again. Poor folks will be poor even if epic. Rich folks will be rich even at lvl 4.
[size=67]
That is my opinion, not nessasarily anyone else's opinon, might just be, but that would be a coincodence, and damnit, sometimes the crap I write is not even my opinion either.[/size]
slave.of.emotions
Groundling
Posts: 106
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 3:32 pm
Location: The European Union
Contact:

Post by slave.of.emotions »

WrathoG777 wrote:
slave.of.emotions wrote:There is yet still the aspect that when prices of heal potions will be incrased alot then rich characters can still buy them (espacialy epic since they dont need to spend gold or gear or what everanymore) while not so rich characters will be left without any.
There will always be a disparity between the rich and the poor. The fundemental CoPap wide changes can only look at the average person to make these kinds of decisions.

The rich will always have plenty of everything. The poor will never have enough to meet their needs. There is nothing that can be done to change that.

It has been gone over time and time again. Poor folks will be poor even if epic. Rich folks will be rich even at lvl 4.
Well then how do you decide what a avarange character is, and how many of those avarange characters do run with huge sets of heal potions or healing kits ? When i saw someone use heal potions then it was some character that seems extramly strong and could use those potions in masses. Healing Kits on other hand wight alot, 5lbs for 10kits, someone said people have 200 healing kits, thats 100lbs and even with 60% reduction bags its still 40 lbs ? Thats something that rather only a fighter style char can carry, no one of my chars would be able to carry that. As you said there will be always chars that will have this or that in masses but does this mean that one have to change evrything and pull the definition of "avarange" higher because of few ?


If something really does not work then it should be changed, but once you start to change you will see that this or that does not fit, then even the changes you make... and in the end evryone will be busy tweaking things.
Starslayer_D
Ambassador: Abyss404
Posts: 153
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 1:52 pm
Location: Senior DM Abyss404

Post by Starslayer_D »

It had been stated somewhere by Orleron that adjusting all spawns would necessite changing 7000+ spawns on the wilderness server alone, and thus would not happen.
(please correct me if I grosly misquoted)

Thus, a need for serious healing will allways be present.
Khaelindra
Groundling
Posts: 94
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2004 5:48 am
Location: Deventer, the Netherlands

Post by Khaelindra »

Starslayer_D wrote:It had been stated somewhere by Orleron that adjusting all spawns would necessite changing 7000+ spawns on the wilderness server alone, and thus would not happen.
(please correct me if I grosly misquoted)

Thus, a need for serious healing will allways be present.
If the basic monster is adjusted, all spawns generating that monster are automatically adjusted as well as they will spawn the adjusted monster, aren't they?
Tristan_Durst
World Leader: Arborea
Posts: 236
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2004 1:04 am

Post by Tristan_Durst »

Khaelindra wrote:
Starslayer_D wrote:It had been stated somewhere by Orleron that adjusting all spawns would necessite changing 7000+ spawns on the wilderness server alone, and thus would not happen.
(please correct me if I grosly misquoted)

Thus, a need for serious healing will allways be present.
If the basic monster is adjusted, all spawns generating that monster are automatically adjusted as well as they will spawn the adjusted monster, aren't they?
That is true, but when you Upadate varibles, and build the mod, it will go through each and every encounter, in each and every area updateing the creatures. That would take a looooooooooooooooooooooong time for a 7000+ encounter server.
Post Reply